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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, I’m talking with a very special guest: Sir Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the World Wide Web. Tim is a legend in the history of the internet. He created HTML and HTTP. It doesn’t really get more foundational than that — Tim was there at the very very beginning of the modern internet.

He also has a new memoir out called This Is For Everyone: The Unfinished Story of the World Wide Web. So Tim joined the show to talk about the state of the web, as well as his current work at the decentralization startup Inrupt, and, of course, where AI fits into the conversation. 

Links: 

 This Is For Everyone | Macmillan

 The Semantic Web | W3C

 Tim Berners-Lee invented the web, now wants to save it | The New Yorker

 Why I gave the world wide web away for free | The Guardian

 Amazon, Perplexity kick off the great AI web browser fight | The Verge

 Web War III | The Verge

 Google admits the open web is in ‘rapid decline’ | The Verge

 Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Sir Tim Berners-Lee doesn’t think AI will destroy the web

We keep hearing over and over that generative AI is causing massive problems in education, both in K-12 schools and at the college level. Lots of people are worried about students using ChatGPT to cheat on assignments, and that is a problem. But really, the issues go a lot deeper, to the very philosophy of education itself.

We sat down and talked to a lot of teachers — you’ll hear many of their voices throughout this episode — and we kept hearing one cri du coeur again and again: What are we even doing here? What’s the point?

Links: 

 Majority of high school students use gen AI for schoolwork | College Board

 Quarter of teens have used ChatGPT for schoolwork | Pew Research

 Your brain on ChatGPT | MIT Media Lab

 My students think it’s fine to cheat with AI. Maybe they’re on to something. | Vox

 How children understand & learn from conversational AI | McGill University

 ‘File not Found’ | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How AI is fueling an existential crisis in education

David Risher was on Lyft's board for years, but only stepped in as CEO in 2023, to help turn the company around. He's done pretty well so far, but there are still a lot of open questions for him to face. It's not just competition for riders and drivers Lyft has to deal with; it’s the future of transportation itself, and new AI tools that might take apps like Lyft out of the equation entirely.

Links: 

 Lyft’s first ‘robotaxis’ are live in Atlanta | The Verge

 Tensor robocar will be “Lyft ready” out of the factory | Engadget

 Congrats, Lyft | The Verge

 Lyft’s AI assistant offers drivers advice on how to make money | The Verge

 Lyft gets toehold in Europe with FreeNow acquisition | The Verge

 Lyft co-founders to step down as company struggles | New York Times

 How Silicon Valley enshittified the internet | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lyft CEO David Risher on paying drivers more and the shift to robotaxis

This is Sarah Jeong, features editor at The Verge. I’m standing in for Nilay for one final Thursday episode here as he settles back into full-time hosting duties. Today, we’ve got a fun one. I’m talking to Cory Doctorow, prolific author, internet activist, and arguably one of the fiercest tech critics writing today. 

He has a new book out called Enshittifcation: Why Everything Suddenly Got Worse and What to Do About It. So I sat down with Cory to discuss what enshittification is, why it’s happening, and how we might fight it. 

Links: 

 Enshittification | Macmillan

 Why every website you used to love is getting worse | Vox

 The age of Enshittification | The New Yorker

 Yes, everything online sucks now — but it doesn’t have to | Ars Technica

 The enshittification of garage-door openers reveals vast, deadly rot | Cory Doctorow

 Mark Zuckerberg emails outline plan to neutralize competitors | The Verge

 Google gets to keep Chrome, judge rules in antitrust case | The Verge

 How Amazon wins: by steamrolling rivals and partners | WSJ

 A new web DRM standard has security researchers worried | The Verge

 Netflix, Microsoft & Google just changed how the web works | The Outline

Subscribe to The Verge⁠ to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How Silicon Valley enshittified the internet

LexisNexis is one of the most important companies in the entire legal system. For ages it's been where you went to look up case law and do legal research. There isn’t a lawyer today who hasn’t used it — it’s fundamental infrastructure for the legal profession, just like email or a word processor.

But in 2025, apparently nobody can resist the siren call of AI, and LexisNexis is no different. The first word Sean said to describe LexisNexis wasn’t “law” or “data,” it was “AI.” And I had questions, because so far AI has created just as much chaos and slop in the courts as anywhere else.

Read the full transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 Errors found in judge’s withdrawn decision stink of AI | The Verge

 Why do lawyers keep using ChatGPT? | The Verge

 Conservative judge says AI could strengthen originalist movement | Reuters

 LexisNexis CEO says it’s ‘a matter of time’ before attorney loses a license | Fortune

 Two companies ruled legal tech for decades. AI is blowing that open | BI

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

LexisNexis CEO says the AI law era is already here

Today’s guests are General Motors CEO Mary Barra and new GM Chief Product Officer Sterling Anderson. There’s a lot of big news the company just announced, including a Google Gemini-powered AI assistant that's coming to new cars and an entirely new hardware and software platform coming to the Escalade IQ in 2028 alongside true Level 3 autonomous driving. 

So I asked Mary about all of that and how she's navigating the current moment, and her company's relationship with the Trump administration. I also got into the details on GM’s platform with Sterling, including its decision to ditch Apple CarPlay on its EVs and what all this looks like in the future as AI voice assistants and more capable autonomy come into the mix.

Read the full transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 GM says hands-free, eyes-off driving is coming to Escalade IQ | The Verge

 GM takes a $1.6 billion hit on EVs | ⁠The Verge

 GM software boss on ditching CarPlay | Decoder

 Ford CEO on China, tariffs, and the quest for a $30,000 EV | Decoder

 The EV tax credit is gone — now the hard part begins | Decoder

 GM blocks dealership from installing CarPlay retrofit kits in EVs | The Verge

 Everybody hates GM’s decision to kill Apple CarPlay | The Verge

 GM hires ex-Tesla, Aurora exec as chief product officer | CNBC

 Cruise’s robotaxi service will shut down as GM pulls its funding | The Verge

 Newsom names GM’s Mary Barra as villain in fight with feds | Streetlight CA

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why GM will give you Gemini — but not CarPlay

Hey everyone, it’s Nilay. I’m back from parental leave, and I’m really excited to jump back into Decoder. Today’s episode is a special one: I’m talking to Zocdoc CEO Oliver Kharraz, and we chatted live on stage at the TechFutures conference in New York City. 

You’re almost certainly familiar with ZocDoc — it’s a platform that helps people find and book appointments with doctors. It’s a classic of the early app economy. The big difference is that Zocdoc plugs into the U.S. healthcare system, which is of course a giant mess, and that means Zocdoc has a big moat. So we talked about competition, navigating the US healthcare system, and, of course, what AI is doing to medicine. 

Read the full transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 "Superhuman" AI could transform medicine, Zocdoc CEO says | Axios

 How AI is changing your doctors appointments | Fast Company

 This Strategy ‘Nearly Killed’ Zocdoc. | Inc.

 Zocdoc Turns 18 | Oliver Kharraz / LinkedIn

 Meet Zo, the AI Phone Assistant for healthcare | Zocdoc

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Zocdoc CEO: "Dr. Google is going to be replaced by Dr. AI"

This is Jake Kastrenakes, executive editor at The Verge. I’m filling in for Nilay here while he settles back into full-time hosting duties. We’ve got a very good episode for you today. My guest is Verge transportation editor Andy Hawkins, and we’re talking about the federal EV tax credit. 

The tax credit expired at the end of September, and there are a lot of questions about what happens to the auto industry after its demise. This is a really hard, complicated set of problems, with a lot of moving parts, so I was really excited to have Andy on the show to break down all of these components and give us a clearer picture about what’s coming next. 

Links: 

 The EV tax credit is dead — here’s what happens next | The Verge

 GM takes a $1.6 billion hit on EVs | The Verge

 Ford CEO Jim Farley on China, tariffs, and affordable EV | The Verge

 Ford lost $5 billion on EVs in 2024, teases new models | The Verge

 EV makers fill tax-credit void with costly discounts | Automotive News

 So much for Ford and GM’s scheme to extend the EV tax credit | The Verge

 Stellantis replaces EV tax credit with its own discount | Automotive News

 Tesla sales picking up thanks to expiring tax credit | The Verge

 California Reverses Pledge To Revive EV Tax Credit | SF Chronicle

 Global EV sales growth slows to 15% in August, research firm says | Reuters

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The EV tax credit is dead. What now?

If you're a paid subscriber to the Verge, there's great news: you can now listen to Decoder, Version History, and The Vergecast completely ad-free. Just head to your Account Settings page to opt-in and start listening without ads. Not a member of The Verge yet? No worries! You can sign up at theverge.com/subscribe to get ad-free podcasts, plus other perks like exclusive newsletters and unlimited access to everything we publish.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Announcing an ad-free Decoder feed for Verge subscribers

This is Hayden Field, senior AI reporter at The Verge and your Thursday episode guest host. It’s been a very big news week in AI, and a lot of it had to do with OpenAI, its DevDay in San Francisco this week, and the viral explosion of AI-generated video thanks to the company’s new Sora app. 

So I brought in Kanjun Qiu, CEO of AI startup Imbue and a close watcher of the industry, to break down what’s really happening, why it’s happening, and the societal implications of it all. 

Links: 

 All of the updates from OpenAI DevDay 2025 | The Verge

 OpenAI wasn’t expecting Sora’s copyright drama | The Verge

 I’ve fallen into Sora’s slippery slop | The Verge

 Sora 2 users are having fun with Sam Altman’s face | The Verge

 OpenAI will let developers build apps that work inside ChatGPT | The Verge

 OpenAI wants ChatGPT to be your future operating system | Wired

 Sora 2 watermark removers flood the web | 404 Media

 What the arrival of AI-fabricated video means for us | NYT

 Recruiters use AI to scan résumés — applicants are trying to trick it | NYT

 Employers are buried in AI-generated résumés | NYT

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The AI industry is at a major crossroads

Tesla and SpaceX CEO Elon Musk talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about Tesla's turbulent 2018, when SpaceX will send its first rocket to Mars, why he fights with journalists on Twitter and much more. In this episode: (01:49) Using Twitter without a filter; (04:50) Picking fights with the press; (07:59) The “excruciating” year of 2018; (10:54) Why does Musk push himself so hard?; (13:49) The toll on him and Tesla’s employees; (16:52) Self-inflicted wounds and sleep deprivation; (21:44) Tesla’s first profitable quarter in two years; (23:35) Self-driving cars; (25:38) Government regulation; (29:13) Tesla’s competitors; (33:30) Why Tesla is not going private after all; (36:31) The Tesla Semi, pickup truck and other new products; (45:10) SpaceX and dying on Mars; (49:48) Donald Trump’s Space Force and colonizing beyond Earth; (51:49) Going to Mars; (55:06) Jeff Bezos, Blue Origin and Amazon; (57:03) The Boring Company, dad jokes and drilling technology; (1:05:55) Jamal Khashoggi, Saudi investors and techlash; (1:11:05) How is Musk feeling about the future?; (1:15:38) If he got one redo on something from 2018, what would he redo?; (1:16:43) Why Tesla won't make a scooter
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Recode Decode: Elon Musk

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