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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. This is a real burner of an episode. We covered everything from his approach to training new models to his criticisms of Anthropic talking about Claude as though it is conscious. 

Of course, we also talked about Microsoft’s relationship with OpenAI, how Mustafa is thinking about all the negative polling and political pushback around AI right now, and whether any of the consumer products are good enough to overcome it. Like I said, it’s a burner.

Links: 

 Microsoft and OpenAI broke up — now they’re ready to fight | The Verge

 Microsoft Build 2026: The 7 biggest announcements | The Verge

 Microsoft’s first advanced reasoning AI is here | The Verge

 Microsoft’s new ‘superintelligence’ game plan is all about business | The Verge

 Here’s how the new Microsoft and OpenAI deal breaks down | The Verge

 Microsoft AI chief says 18 months until white-collar tasks automated by AI | FT

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Microsoft AI chief thinks superintelligence is near, but won't take your job

My guest today is Ryan Mac, a technology reporter at The New York Times and co-author of the excellent book Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter, which came out in 2024. I wanted to have Ryan on today because we’re on the cusp of the SpaceX IPO, which promises to be one of the most consequential public offerings in history for a variety of reasons. 

Its biggest-ever size, of course, at nearly $2 trillion dollars. But also because all kinds of rules that keep our markets fair are being bent, if not outright broken, along the way. And, also because buried somewhere inside SpaceX is X, the social platform formerly known as Twitter, which Musk purchased in 2022.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 Welcome to hell, Elon | The Verge

 The SpaceX IPO is great for Elon Musk and terrible for you | The Verge

 In SpaceX’s IPO, Elon Musk is the risk factor | The Verge

 For Wall Street, the only thing worse than SpaceX flopping is missing out | NYT

 How SpaceX Is structured to favor Elon Musk | NYT

 As the SpaceX hype machine steamrolls ahead, Wall Street jumps aboard | NYT

 The SpaceX IPO Reveals What Really Happened to Twitter | NY Mag

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Elon Musk is steamrolling Wall Street to become a trillionaire

I last talked to Recording Academy CEO Harvey Mason Jr in 2024 — when it was obvious that generative AI would upend the music industry, but not exactly clear how that would happen.

Now, Harvey says AI is “omnipresent” in music production. So what kinds of tools are musicians using, in what way, and what kind of music is it making for us? Is it any good? And how do we identify, and take care of, actual human musicians in this mess?

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Why the Grammys need to change, with CEO Harvey Mason Jr | Decoder

 Is ‘blue dot fever’ a real problem for the concert industry? | Los Angeles Times

 USA v. LiveNation-Ticketmaster: All the news | The Verge

 The future of country music is here, and it’s AI | The Verge

 Poll: AI is transforming how we think about music | Hollywood Reporter

 Inside the ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ era of AI in music | Rolling Stone

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

AI is blowing up music. How should the Grammys handle it?

Today, I’m talking with Wassym Bensaid, the chief software officer at Rivian, and the co-ceo of Rivian’s platform joint venture with Volkswagen. That joint venture, called RV Tech, is about a year and a half old, so I wanted to ask Wassym how it all works and Rivian’s ongoing relationship with Volkswagen. 

Because it’s Rivian, I also had to ask Wassym about CarPlay. But the company also just launched an AI-powered voice assistant, which I got to try early. So I had a lot of fun digging into that with Wassym, too. This is a fun one – really in the weeds of a lot of my favorite things to talk about.

Links: 

 Rivian’s AI-powered voice assistant is ready to roll | The Verge

 The R2 is nearly here — can Rivian stick the landing? | The Verge

 Rivian’s AI pivot is about more than chasing Tesla | The Verge

 Rivian / VW will start testing their first EVs next year | The Verge

 Rivian CEO: ‘We’re really convicted’ about skipping CarPlay | Decoder (2025)

 Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe says too many carmakers are copying Tesla | Decoder (2024)

 Rivian CEO RJ Scaringe isn't scared of the Cybertruck | Decoder (2023)

 Rivian’s chief software officer says in-car buttons are ‘an anomaly’ | TechCrunch

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt,. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rivian's software chief thinks you don't need CarPlay or buttons

Connecting with Google CEO Sundar Pichai at I/O every year is one of my favorite Decoder traditions. This was our fifth year doing it, and there’s always a whole slew of new things to talk about.

This year, in addition to the news, we talked about Google Zero; picking fights with YouTube creators and publishers; and what being at “the foothills of the singularity" even means. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 If Google can’t make AI agents useful, maybe no one can | The Verge

 The future of Google is a search box that does everything | The Verge

 Large language mistake | The Verge

 You can now remix other people’s YouTube Shorts with AI | The Verge

 Condé Nast calls Google Zero | The Verge

 Demis Hassabis said this may be the ‘foothills of the singularity’ | The Verge

 Google I/O 2026: All the news and announcements | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How Sundar Pichai is rethinking Google for the AI era

Musk v Altman was nominally about OpenAI's conversion to a for-profit entity, and how it went about that change. But really, the suit seems mostly to have been about Elon Musk being mad at Sam Altman — or at OpenAI, for being successful without him — and wanting him punished in some way.

Verge reporter Liz Lopatto spent the last month covering the trial, in all its chaos, and joins Decoder to ask: In a courtroom full of untrustworthy, unreliable people all fighting with each other, did anyone even have a reputation left to lose?

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Elon Musk loses his case against Sam Altman | The Verge

 Musk v. Altman proved AI is led by the wrong people | The Verge

 Musk v. Altman accomplished nothing but airing dirty laundry | The Verge

 Elon Musk’s worst enemy in court is Elon Musk | The Verge

 Behold, the Elon Musk jackass trophy | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Musk v Altman: Much ado about nothing

Just days before we spoke, BuzzFeed co-founder and CEO Jonah Peretti agreed to sell the company, which was losing money and at risk of shutting down. Now there’s a new lease on life — and new leadership. Jonah is taking on a new role as president of BuzzFeed AI, and Byron Allen will become CEO of BuzzFeed. 

That’s obviously a huge structural and organizational change, and a really big decision — prime Decoder bait if there ever was any. What are digital media companies doing to adapt and survive in an information landscape dominated by algorithmic social platforms?

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Byron Allen is buying BuzzFeed and becoming CEO | Variety

 BuzzFeed issues going concern warning, lacks liquidity | Wall Street Journal

 BuzzFeed News is shutting down | The Verge

 BuzzFeed sells Hot Ones studio in $82.5M deal | NBC News

 The unbearable lightness of BuzzFeed | The Verge

 I hate myself because I don’t work for BuzzFeed (2015) | The Awl

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Exclusive: Jonah Peretti explains why he sold BuzzFeed

Brendan Ballou is founder of the Public Integrity Project and author of the new book, When Companies Run the Courts, about the rise of forced arbitration.

Forced arbitration is similarly everywhere in modern life, and there have been some very high-profile cases these past few years highlighting how deeply unfair these clauses are to consumers. Brendan’s book delves into how and why we got here — spoiler: we can blame Antonin Scalia for some of it — but also, most importantly, how we may be able to fight back in the future.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 When Companies Run the Courts | Hachette

 Private equity bought out your doctor and bankrupted Toys ‘R Us | Decoder

 Press freedom groups demand access to Paramount records | The Wrap

 Disney gives up on trying to use Disney+ to settle wrongful death suit | The Verge

 Samsung, corruption, and you (2017) | The Verge

 The surprising case for AI judges | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decode

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How companies weaponize the terms of service against you

My guest today is longtime friend of the show Joanna Stern. You all know Joanna: she is the former senior personal technology columnist for The Wall Street Journal, a former Decoder guest host, one of my co-founders at The Verge, and also just one of my very closest friends.

Joanna just left that lofty perch at the Journal to start her own media company called New Things, and she’s starting with her new book about AI called I Am Not a Robot, which is out this week on May 12th. So we had Joanna on to talk about all of that, especially what she learned going all in on automation. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 I Am Not a Robot | Harper Collins

 It’s time. Meet my New Thing | Joanna Stern

 Why I left My prestigious job to make YouTube videos | Joanna Stern / YouTube

 Signing off from this column after 12 years. Here’s what’s changed in tech | WSJ

 I tried the robot that’s coming to live with you. It’s still par human | WSJ

 The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Joanna Stern is not a robot, but she lived with them

Hey, everyone, Nilay here. We’re off today, while the team and I are cooking on a lot of really great stuff in the coming weeks. We’ll be back with an all-new interview on Monday. 

In the meantime, we really wanted to highlight this episode we first aired in the fall, because it’s about a huge subject: AI in schools. The school year is starting to wrap up now around the country, and we’re no closer to figuring out how to thread the needle about generative AI in education than we were in September.

Links: 

 A majority of high school students use gen AI for schoolwork | College Board

 About a quarter of teens have used ChatGPT for schoolwork | Pew Research

 Your brain on ChatGPT | MIT Media Lab

 My students think it’s fine to cheat with AI. Maybe they’re on to something. | Vox 

 How children understand and learn from conversational AI | McGill University

 ‘File not Found’ | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. Our editor is Ursa Wright. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rewind: How AI is fueling an existential crisis in education

1stdibs CEO David Rosenblatt explains how his company, a marketplace for rare luxury products, made the transition from an advertising to e-commerce. Unlike other executives in the commerce space, Rosenblatt isn't worried about Amazon competing with him directly because 1stdibs' sellers aren't comfortable selling their expensive goods alongside lower-priced brands. Rosenblatt also talks about the growing importance of VR and AR for his industry and how his former company — the online advertising pioneer DoubleClick — survived the dot-com crash and got acquired by Google.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recode Decode: David Rosenblatt, CEO, 1stdibs

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