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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today, I’m talking with Toni Schneider, the new head of social platform Bluesky who formally took over after a short stint as interim CEO. This is one of my favorite kinds of interviews, because a couple years ago we had Bluesky’s prior CEO, Jay Graber, on the show — she’s now the company’s chief innovation officer. All of that kind of shuffle is pure Decoder bait: a new CEO often brings with them new priorities, which is perhaps the most Decoder subject of all.

Links: 

 Bluesky CEO Jay Graber | Decoder (2024)

 Bluesky CEO Jay Graber steps down | TechCrunch

 Staying in the game | Toni Schneider

 The messy WordPress drama, explained | The Verge

 Proton CTO Bart Butler | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bluesky’s new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble

Hey everyone, this is Nick Statt, senior producer on Decoder. We’re taking a brief publishing break while Nilay is out on vacation. We’ll resume regular programming next week, and we’ve got some great episodes in the works. 

In the meantime, we wanted to share an episode from the excellent podcast The Gray Area, with host Sean Illing. In this one, Sean sat down with The Atlantic journalist Charlie Warzel to talk specifically about the state of the internet in 2026 — and what it means that it feels increasingly overrun by non-human actors. 

Links: 

 The Gray Area with Sean Illing | Apple Podcasts

 Galaxy Brain | The Atlantic

 The internet is all bots now | The Gray Area (YouTube)

 The feeling of control slipping away | The Atlantic

 How much of the internet is fake? Turns out, a lot of it, actually| New York Magazine

 How bots took over our lives | The New Yorker

 The ‘dead internet theory’ is real — and it’s killing the web | Fast Company

 The fanfare around the band Geese actually was a psyop | Wired

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The end of the human internet

Evan Smith, cofounder and CEO of Altana, was last on the show in early 2025 to talk about how Trump’s first few waves of tariffs were starting to affect global trade. It was a very alarming and also very illuminating chat; Evan and I got into the existential weeds of international relations and economics almost immediately.

A year and a half later, and everything is somehow even more chaotic than it was the last time Evan and I talked — and that’s true about both trade and also the world of running a software company. Agentic AI, whack-a-mole tariff policy, war in Iran — we jumped right back into weeds yet again.

Read the full interview transcript The Verge. 

Links: 

 How Trump’s tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder

 Skydio CEO Adam Bry on not drawing red lines for drone use | Decoder

 Trump imposes new global tariffs, drawing protests from trading partners | Reuters

 Greer: USMCA Talks Could Stretch Into Next Year | Wall Street Journal

 Trump hits Canada with new 50% tariffs | Associated Press

 Iran weaponized the Strait of Hormuz. Now neighbors are going around it | CNN

 The Iran war is testing Southeast Asia’s faith in the US | Politico

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tariffs didn’t bring manufacturing jobs back to the US

Today, I’m talking with Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, about the major trade secrets lawsuit between Apple and OpenAI, and what this tells us about OpenAI’s future. 

Hayden has been covering OpenAI for years now, and she also just talked to a bunch of lawyers who specialize in intellectual property and trade secret law to get a sense of how serious this case is. The answer is not entirely positive for OpenAI. This legal battle could also affect OpenAI’s hardware plans, its forthcoming IPO, and its already-damaged reputation. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Sam Altman didn’t need another lawsuit | The Verge

 OpenAI’s first device will be moveable, screenless speaker | Bloomberg

 Apple sues OpenAI for allegedly stealing hardware secrets | The Verge

 The 6 wildest claims in Apple’s lawsuit against OpenAI | The Verge

 OpenAI is buying Jony Ive’s AI hardware company | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What Apple’s OpenAI lawsuit is really about

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show.

You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial.

These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The Artificial State | The New Yorker 

 ‘Terminator’ to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state’ | Yale Univ.

 The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times

 Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jill Lepore on why the AI backlash is vital for the future

We’ve got the first of a two-part series on the systems that run the world: I’m talking today with Bart Butler, the CTO of Proton, the company that makes private and secure productivity software. 

There’s a lot of big Decoder themes in this one. That includes how Proton has structured its ownership and architected its products to align its incentives with protecting users. At the same time, Proton faces new challenges and pressures, both at home in Switzerland and from the EU and US government that are putting its values to the test. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Proton now offers an entire bundle of office services | The Verge

 Proton Mail helped FBI unmask anonymous ‘Stop Cop City’ protester | 404Media

 Proton says it will leave Switzerland if this controversial law Is passed | Vice

 Age verification is a mess but we’re doing it anyway | The Verge

 Let’s build a children’s public internet | The Verge

 Let me see some ID: age verification is spreading across the internet | The Verge

 Why Chat Control 1.0 is the EU's most Orwellian law yet | Euronews

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Proton’s CTO: No company is going to jail for you

Nvidia is obviously in the news constantly because of the AI boom — but it's also a major supplier to the entire auto industry As head of Nvidia's automotive division, Xinzhou Wu has a front-row seat to all the challenges EVs and autonomous vehicles are facing, especially in the US.

And of course, you can’t talk about electric cars or vehicle autonomy in the US without talking about Elon Musk and Tesla. So I asked Xinzhou pretty directly if Tesla full self driving can actually do what Elon claims it will be able to do without using LiDAR. You tell me if you think his answer holds up.

Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. 

Links: 

 Nvidia’s head of autonomous driving opens up about his plans | The Verge

 Hyundai, Nissan, BYD, and Geely Join Nvidia’s Level 4 | MotorTrend

 Nvidia, auto suppliers roll out partnerships to rekindle self-driving | Reuters

 Meet Alpamayo, Nvidia’s new AI model for autonomous cars | Forbes

 I tested Nvidia’s FSD competitor — Tesla should be worried | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yes, even Nvidia's head of automotive is fighting for compute

My guest today is Peter Kafka, chief correspondent at Business Insider and host of Channels, a podcast about the media industry. And it’s a big week for the media industry — Comcast just announced that it’s splitting itself up, into the Comcast broadband company and the NBCUniversal entertainment company.

This dream, that you can combine distribution with big splashy entertainment properties, has failed time and again. But Comcast tried the content plus pipes strategy for longer than most. So Peter and I discussed what happened in the media and broadband industries over the last 15 years, and what might happen next. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Comcast is cutting NBCUniversal loose | Business Insider

 Comcast’s split could make or break Peacock | The Verge

 Comcast and NBCUniversal will go it alone. But for how long? | NYT

 Comcast split shows bigger is no longer better | Deadline

 A cable scion’s hardest deal yet: breaking up his family’s company | WSJ

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why did Comcast ever buy NBC?

Today I’m talking with Ali Berman and Raina Penchansky, who run the Creators Division at United Talent Agency. UTA is an enormous talent agency, and Ali and Raina's creators division represents some of the biggest creators and influencers in the world.

So I really wanted to know how Raina and Ali identify up-and-coming talent, how they work with that talent to build durable businesses, and what the machinations of being a top creator actually look like in practice.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 The power brokers behind the $250B influencer economy | Wall Street Journal

 The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok)

 UTA Unveils Upscale Office for Creators | The Hollywood Reporter

 YouTube Stars Breach Hollywood’s Most Gilded Gate | New York Times

 CAA, TPG form holding company to acquire creator-led businesses | Variety

 How creator talent agencies are evolving into multi-platform operators | Digiday

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Inside the big business of the creator economy, with Ali Berman and Raina Penchansky

We’ve got a special Decoder today. I had the chance to talk with Amy Lanzi, the CEO of Digitas North America, in front of a live audience at the Uber villa at the Cannes Lions advertising festival in the south of France.

There’s a lot in this one on AI, the creator economy, and the future of marketing – like I said, Amy is as sharp as they come, and I really enjoy talking to her about how the money really works.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok)

 The Wrong Promises | Publicis Groupe (YouTube)

 You can just tell the Instagram algorithm what you want now | The Verge

 How brands and creators are fighting for your attention and money | Decoder (2025)

 How influencers are changing advertising, with Digitas’ Amy Lanzi | Decoder (2024)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The CMO is a dying role, says Digitas' Amy Lanzi

In this live interview, Oracle co-CEO Mark Hurd talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about how Oracle transitioned its business to the cloud, which is the fastest-growing segment of all enterprise spending. Hurd says a large, process-laden company like Oracle can't risk getting complacent and out-innovated by smaller startups, and had to weather some unhappy investors on Wall Street for many quarters because building out cloud services takes time and money. He also talks about immigration policy, job automation and why Steve Jobs once told him he would hate to have Hurd's job.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recode Decode: Mark Hurd, co-CEO, Oracle

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