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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Today I’m talking to Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor. Ben ran BuzzFeed News at the height of the Facebook traffic boom, and even wrote a book about it, called Traffic, which he discussed with me on Decoder back in 2023. 

Semafor, which is only four years old, is now a fast-growing and profitable media company, which makes about half of its revenue from events. So I wanted to talk to Ben about how that all works, and what it feels like to navigate the ethical conflicts that seem to be everywhere in media right now. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Jonah Peretti explains why he sold BuzzFeed | Decoder

 What’s after the social media era in news? | Decoder (2023)

 Semafor raises $30 Million after first profitable year | The Wrap

 Semafor’s new AI tool helped boil down its flagship conference | Nieman Lab

 Semafor launches Silicon Valley & The World | Semafor

 Semafor takes aim at Davos as events surpass half Its revenue | Adweek

 Semafor Is Betting Big on 'Anti-Scale' Video | Adweek

 Semafor wants to be ‘business outlet of record in the Gulf” | Press Gazette

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our Supervising Producer is Greg Ott and our Editorial Director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It's about ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith

My guest today is The Verge’s Hayden Field, and we’re discussing a question that’s been rocketing around the tech industry for the past week: Is Google losing the AI race?

That's because last week, the company announced a bombshell reorganization of its AI division. You can read these moves, and Google’s reaction, in a lot of different ways. So I really wanted to sit down with Hayden to dig into some of the smartest analysis we’ve seen this past week, and what we think is really going on here.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The messy politics behind Google’s big AI shakeup | The Verge

 Gemini is cooked but GCP is cooking | SemiAnalysis

 Google announced a major shakeup of its top AI leadership | The Verge

 AI lab musical chairs hits Google the hardest | Axios

 Demis Hassabis said this might be the ‘foothills of the singularity.’ What? | The Verge

 Google’s AI architect lived rent-free in Elon Musk’s head | The Verge

 Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Does Google even want to win in AI?

My guest today is Lila Snyder, the CEO of Bose. Lila was last on the show about four years ago, and since then she’s dramatically rearchitected the company — she sold off Bose Professional, acquired the high end audio brands McIntosh Labs and Sonus faber, and, perhaps most importantly, started licensing all that core Bose technology to other companies.

That big change in the business comes with a big change in structure. Becoming a software company in addition to a product company comes with a whole new set of challenges, and Lila and I got into how it’s all working. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 How Bose competes with AirPods, with CEO Lila Snyder | Decoder (2022)

 Bose thinks it can be a media company for some reason | The Verge

 Bose acquires premium audio brand McIntosh | The Verge

 Bose reinvented itself just in time. Now comes the tricky part | Wired

 Bose sells off its premium division after 50 years | Bose

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bose CEO Lila Snyder on the fight for high-quality audio

Our guest today is Gaby Del Valle, a policy reporter here at The Verge, and we’re discussing the growing backlash against AI data centers. Gaby recently reported a fantastic piece about Hernando County, Florida, where last month the county commission unanimously approved a year-long moratorium on data center construction.

So I wanted Gaby to talk me through what these protests look like on the ground, from voters whose party affiliations have typically aligned them with big business.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Right-wingers protesting data centers have a lot in common with the left | The Verge

 No data centers in my backyard | Jasmine Sun

 Who’s afraid of the big, bad GPU? | The Verge 

 NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge

 The fight against AI data centers is just beginning | The Verge

 Florida gives millions in tax breaks to data centers under DeSantis-backed law | Tampa Bay Times

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The left and right agree on one thing: no data centers

Today, I’m talking with Toni Schneider, the new head of social platform Bluesky who formally took over after a short stint as interim CEO. This is one of my favorite kinds of interviews, because a couple years ago we had Bluesky’s prior CEO, Jay Graber, on the show — she’s now the company’s chief innovation officer. All of that kind of shuffle is pure Decoder bait: a new CEO often brings with them new priorities, which is perhaps the most Decoder subject of all.

Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠.

Links: 

 Bluesky CEO Jay Graber | Decoder (2024)

 Bluesky CEO Jay Graber steps down | TechCrunch

 Staying in the game | Toni Schneider

 The messy WordPress drama, explained | The Verge

 Proton CTO Bart Butler | Decoder

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Bluesky’s new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble

Hey everyone, this is Nick Statt, senior producer on Decoder. We’re taking a brief publishing break while Nilay is out on vacation. We’ll resume regular programming next week, and we’ve got some great episodes in the works. 

In the meantime, we wanted to share an episode from the excellent podcast The Gray Area, with host Sean Illing. In this one, Sean sat down with The Atlantic journalist Charlie Warzel to talk specifically about the state of the internet in 2026 — and what it means that it feels increasingly overrun by non-human actors. 

Links: 

 The Gray Area with Sean Illing | Apple Podcasts

 Galaxy Brain | The Atlantic

 The internet is all bots now | The Gray Area (YouTube)

 The feeling of control slipping away | The Atlantic

 How much of the internet is fake? Turns out, a lot of it, actually| New York Magazine

 How bots took over our lives | The New Yorker

 The ‘dead internet theory’ is real — and it’s killing the web | Fast Company

 The fanfare around the band Geese actually was a psyop | Wired

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The end of the human internet

Evan Smith, cofounder and CEO of Altana, was last on the show in early 2025 to talk about how Trump’s first few waves of tariffs were starting to affect global trade. It was a very alarming and also very illuminating chat; Evan and I got into the existential weeds of international relations and economics almost immediately.

A year and a half later, and everything is somehow even more chaotic than it was the last time Evan and I talked — and that’s true about both trade and also the world of running a software company. Agentic AI, whack-a-mole tariff policy, war in Iran — we jumped right back into weeds yet again.

Read the full interview transcript The Verge. 

Links: 

 How Trump’s tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder

 Skydio CEO Adam Bry on not drawing red lines for drone use | Decoder

 Trump imposes new global tariffs, drawing protests from trading partners | Reuters

 Greer: USMCA Talks Could Stretch Into Next Year | Wall Street Journal

 Trump hits Canada with new 50% tariffs | Associated Press

 Iran weaponized the Strait of Hormuz. Now neighbors are going around it | CNN

 The Iran war is testing Southeast Asia’s faith in the US | Politico

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tariffs didn’t bring manufacturing jobs back to the US

Today, I’m talking with Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, about the major trade secrets lawsuit between Apple and OpenAI, and what this tells us about OpenAI’s future. 

Hayden has been covering OpenAI for years now, and she also just talked to a bunch of lawyers who specialize in intellectual property and trade secret law to get a sense of how serious this case is. The answer is not entirely positive for OpenAI. This legal battle could also affect OpenAI’s hardware plans, its forthcoming IPO, and its already-damaged reputation. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Sam Altman didn’t need another lawsuit | The Verge

 OpenAI’s first device will be moveable, screenless speaker | Bloomberg

 Apple sues OpenAI for allegedly stealing hardware secrets | The Verge

 The 6 wildest claims in Apple’s lawsuit against OpenAI | The Verge

 OpenAI is buying Jony Ive’s AI hardware company | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What Apple’s OpenAI lawsuit is really about

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show.

You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial.

These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The Artificial State | The New Yorker 

 ‘Terminator’ to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state’ | Yale Univ.

 The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times

 Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jill Lepore on why the AI backlash is vital for the future

We’ve got the first of a two-part series on the systems that run the world: I’m talking today with Bart Butler, the CTO of Proton, the company that makes private and secure productivity software. 

There’s a lot of big Decoder themes in this one. That includes how Proton has structured its ownership and architected its products to align its incentives with protecting users. At the same time, Proton faces new challenges and pressures, both at home in Switzerland and from the EU and US government that are putting its values to the test. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Proton now offers an entire bundle of office services | The Verge

 Proton Mail helped FBI unmask anonymous ‘Stop Cop City’ protester | 404Media

 Proton says it will leave Switzerland if this controversial law Is passed | Vice

 Age verification is a mess but we’re doing it anyway | The Verge

 Let’s build a children’s public internet | The Verge

 Let me see some ID: age verification is spreading across the internet | The Verge

 Why Chat Control 1.0 is the EU's most Orwellian law yet | Euronews

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Proton’s CTO: No company is going to jail for you

SoFi CEO Mike Cagney sits down with Kara Swisher to discuss why financial technology startups are suddenly hot and how SoFi hopes to eventually replace your bank, even though it has no permanent physical locations. He also talks about why SoFi is planning to launch a dating app (no, really) and why it ran an ad during Super Bowl 50.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recode Decode: Mike Cagney, CEO, SoFi

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