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New York Times Opinion

The first draft of our future. Mapping the new world order through interviews and conversations. Every Thursday, from New York Times Opinion.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Matter of Opinion

Evangelical pastor and self-proclaimed Christian nationalist Doug Wilson has been preaching for decades that America needs to reclaim its Puritan past. But in 2025, he believes he’s “significantly” more influential. Does that mean America is closer to Wilson’s goal of theocracy? In this episode, nothing is off limits — even Ross’s own salvation.

 • 01:36 - Doug Wilson's vision for a Christian nation
 • 08:37 - Wilson’s ideal theocratic republic
 • 19:12 - Theocracy and religious diversity
 • 30:50 - Do women have rights in this new republic?
 • 36:59 - Christendom and slavery
 • 46:50 - How far does Wilson’s influence go in a “clown world”?
 • 59:54 - Calvinism activism and quietism

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

He Believes America Should Be a Theocracy. He Says His Influence Is Growing.

The Twitch and YouTube star Hasan Piker understands what pushes people to commit acts of political violence. But does that understanding tip over into appreciation? In this episode of “Interesting Times,” Ross Douthat and Piker debate why Piker’s post-liberal rhetoric attracts criticism from the right (and results in the occasional platform suspension) and why Americans’ changing attitudes on Israel feed his “revolutionary optimism.”

 • 02:14 - Life during and after Twitch
 • 10:45 - The Hasan Piker worldview
 • 15:57 - “Revolutionary violence”
 • 20:13 - Is it hyperbole or incitement?
 • 30:48 - Hasan’s Luigi Mangione coverage
 • 41:35 - The danger in pushing taboos
 • 51:52 - Anti-Zionist advocacy and Hasan’s Turkish background
 • 1:08:00 - “Revolutionary optimism”

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

A full transcript of this episode is also available on the Times website.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Hasan Piker Is Flirting With the Revolution

What is wrong with higher education in America? According to many on the right, a lot. This week, Ross Douthat talks to May Mailman, the lawyer behind President Trump’s battles with Harvard and Columbia, about the administration’s assault on the Ivy League and why “a glorification of victimhood” is changing the relationship between universities and the federal government.

 • 02:51 - What is a “culture of victimhood”?
 • 07:38 - Mailman’s political awakening
 • 11:44 - Social media and protest culture in the 2010s
 • 19:39 - The Trump administration’s strategy against universities
 • 26:33 - The financial levers that could ensure compliance
 • 36:09 - Ideological diversity and free speech
 • 47:56 - How legal is all this?
 • 52:25 - Higher education in 2030

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

A full transcript of this episode is also available on the Times website.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Grand Strategy Behind Trump’s Crackdown on Academia

Ezra Klein argues that the left desperately needs a unifying project — for its own survival and for the sake of the country. In this episode of Ross Douthat’s “Interesting Times,” Ross and Ezra assess the aftermath of Charlie Kirk’s assassination and debate whether the left has taken a dark turn.

 • 00:25 How liberalism became “uncertain and exhausted”
 • 08:37 The void in the Democratic Party
 • 12:21 Does progressive despair lead to radicalism?
 • 15:04 “Violence is contagious"
 • 19:24 Can the left be more malleable?
 • 28:20 The hippies, Peter Thiel and technology
 • 32:11 Does the American left need cosmic hope?
 • 41:59 A vision of the “good life”

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

A full transcript of this episode is also available on the Times website.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Ezra Klein Is Worried — but Not About a Radicalized Left

In moments of political shock and horror, where can we turn? Ross was supposed to interview Charlie Kirk next month for the show and now offers his reflections on Kirk, his political movement and his assassination.

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

I was set to interview Charlie Kirk. Then he was assassinated.

Is the United States still a worthy opponent for China? In this episode, Ross Douthat talks to Dan Wang, the author of “Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future,” about the alarming speed at which China is able to build and could blow America out of the water.

 • 01:44 - “A life full of ease and beauty”
 • 05:30 - Rule by engineers
 • 11:00 - China’s Technological Mastery
 • 16:04 - Is autocracy driving innovation?
 • 25:00 - What are the real stakes of the competition?
 • 35:47 - How could China fail? 
 • 53:00 - Advice for America

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Does the Future Belong to China?

While “Interesting Times” is on vacation, we’re sharing a conversation from “The Opinions” between Meher Ahmad, an editor for Times Opinion, and the Opinion writer Jessica Grose. They talk about the aesthetics of MAGA women — think Kristi Noem and Nancy Mace — and what they signal about femininity and power within the Republican Party. 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The MAGA Woman Dress Code

This week, we’re sharing a great conversation Ross had on “The Ezra Klein Show” this past spring. Ezra asks Ross about his most recent book, “Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious.” But along the way, they debate not just how religion influences the Trump administration but also their own lives. Come for their seeking and stay for their thoughts on ayahuasca and mystical encounters.

 • 02:39 - Trump: man of destiny?
 • 19:55 - Political power, cruelty and Godliness
 • 36:13 - Religion and spirituality in the modern world
 • 42:53 - The mysteries of the universe…
 • 48:38 - Aliens! Fairies! (and some Catholic history)
 • 56:51 - Contending with uncertainty and evil
 • 1:05:24 - Psychedelic experiences
 • 1:20:56 - Official knowledge
 • 1:38:58 - Book recommendations

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Ross and Ezra Klein Discuss Trump, Mysticism and Psychedelics

For Democrats, President Trump’s victories have revealed the antidemocratic flaws at the core of our government. But could it be an opening for a constitutional revolution as the party searches for its next leader?

This week, Ross explores what that revolution would entail with Osita Nwanevu, the author of the book, “The Right of the People: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding.”

3:46 - What's wrong with our democracy? 
9:07 - Our undemocratic founding 
17:00 - The case for more U.S. states and a new constitution
23:52 - Where economic reform fits into this problem 
29:26 - Does Trump represent the will of the people?
37:17 - What Trump’s presidency says about democracy
40:30 - The elusive Bernie Sanders moment 
46:29 - The mystical element of our politics

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

Abolish the Senate. End the Electoral College. Pack the Court.

Would you use an algorithm to select your embryos? Enter Orchid, a company that promises parents the ability to protect their future children through genetic testing for embryos before pregnancy. The founder, Noor Siddiqui, and Ross debate the scientific, moral and ethical implications of designing a “healthy” child and what we lose in separating reproduction from sex.

 • 01:27 - Orchid’s vision
 • 04:59- The process and benefits
 • 17:20 - Noor explains why Orchid was developed
 • 22:00- Criticism and skepticism around genetic screening
 • 36:21 - Does IVF need to change?
 • 44:00 - “The moral status of the embryo”
 • 53:36 - How does this technology change us?

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Next Parenting Trend Starts Before Conception

Christopher Rufo brought the term "critical race theory" into mainstream conversation. Now, the anti-DEI activist is bringing his critiques of education to the White House. In this episode, Ross explores Rufo's mission to make universities feel "existential terror."

Editors’ note: This episode originally aired on the “Matter of Opinion” podcast on Mar. 7, 2025.

(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) 

Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com.

Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.

The Anti-D.E.I. Crusader Who Wants to Dismantle the Department of Education

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