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Michael Shermer

The Michael Shermer Show is a series of long-form conversations between Dr. Michael Shermer and leading scientists, philosophers, historians, scholars, writers and thinkers about the most important issues of our time.

The Michael Shermer Show

In this fascinating conversation with the evolutionary anthropologist Michael Tomasello, the Max Planck Institute scientist presents his new theory of how humans became such a distinctive species. Other theories focus on evolution. Here, Tomasello proposes a complementary theory of human uniqueness, focused on development. His data-driven model explains how those things that make us most human are constructed during the first years of a child’s life.
 
Tomasello assembles nearly three decades of experimental work with chimpanzees, bonobos, and human children to propose a new framework for psychological growth between birth and seven years of age. He identifies eight pathways that starkly differentiate humans from their closest primate relatives: social cognition, communication, cultural learning, cooperative thinking, collaboration, prosociality, social norms, and moral identity. In each of these, great apes possess rudimentary abilities. But then, Tomasello argues, the maturation of humans’ evolved capacities for shared intentionality transform these abilities—through the new forms of sociocultural interaction they enable—into uniquely human cognition and sociality. The first step occurs around nine months, with the emergence of joint intentionality, exercised mostly with caregiving adults. The second step occurs around three years, with the emergence of collective intentionality involving both authoritative adults, who convey cultural knowledge, and coequal peers, who elicit collaboration and communication. Finally, by age six or seven, children become responsible for self-regulating their beliefs and actions so that they comport with cultural norms.
 
Becoming Human places human sociocultural activity within the framework of modern evolutionary theory, and shows how biology creates the conditions under which culture does its work.
 
Listen to Science Salon via iTunes, Spotify, Google Play Music, Stitcher, iHeartRadio, TuneIn, and Soundcloud.
 
This Science Salon was recorded on February 19, 2019.
 
You play a vital part in our commitment to promote science and reason. If you enjoy the Science Salon Podcast, please show your support by making a donation, or by becoming a patron.

64. Michael Tomasello — Becoming Human

Historically, Western societies were defined by stark divisions between wealth and poverty, with only a slim middle class. Today, the economic landscape has transformed, largely through political and institutional changes that have enabled wealth distribution and middle-class growth. Economist Daniel Waldenström explores this evolution, highlighting that effective social and tax policies are essential to advancing shared prosperity without undermining entrepreneurship.
 
Using rigorous research, Waldenström’s work demonstrates how wealth accumulation patterns have shifted since the 1800s, emphasizing the significant role of increased access to education, property ownership, and pensions. His insights advocate for policies that promote wealth creation across all social tiers, ensuring sustainable growth and financial security for future generations.
 
Shermer and Waldenström cover the scientific basis of economics, how personal beliefs shape economic theories, and differences between income and wealth inequality. They delve into historical wealth disparities, factors that have driven middle-class growth, and policies like the Laffer Curve and labor taxation. Waldenström also offers practical advice on fiscal policy and strategies to help poorer nations achieve wealth and stability.

Building a Wealthier, Fairer Society

Guy P. Harrison is an acclaimed author of nine thought-provoking books that encourage curiosity and critical thinking. In this engaging episode, he and Michael Shermer discuss how science fiction inspires us to think beyond the ordinary and explore the vast possibilities of human progress. From his latest work to his passion for rational dialogue, Harrison’s insights are both inspiring and accessible.
 
Shermer and Harrison tackle a diverse range of topics, including the societal value of science fiction, the flawed debates about religion and evolution, and why humanity might ultimately prevail despite existential threats like AI. They examine UFOs and the Fermi Paradox, discuss redefining atheism, and share optimism about human progress. Harrison’s engaging insights inspire curiosity and critical thinking throughout the episode.
 
Guy Harrison is an award-winning writer and author of nine books, including Think: Why You Should Question Everything, At Least Know This, 50 Reasons People Give for Believing in a God, and Good Thinking. His work has been featured in Skeptic, Reader’s Digest, The Institute of Arts and Ideas, Skeptical Inquirer, Free Inquiry, Big Think, and many other publications. Guy is a longtime essayist for Psychology Today and contributed a chapter about race and racism to The Cognitive Science of Beliefpublished by Cambridge University Press. Random House featured his book Think: Why You Should Question Everything as recommended reading for all first-year university students, and the San Diego Union-Tribunenamed At Least Know This a top-five summer read. His new book, Damn You, Entropy! 1,001 of the Greatest Science Fiction Quotes was a New Scientist magazine “Best Science Fiction Books of the Month” selection.

Rationality, Science Fiction, and Humanity’s Future

In The Suggestible Brain, cognitive psychologist Amir Raz delves into how suggestions can influence everything from wine preferences to memory and emotional reactions. As society grapples with misinformation, Raz’s research spans across cognitive psychology, sociology, and culture, emphasizing the profound impact of suggestion on both personal and collective levels. Raz’s expertise, merging magic with neuropsychology, unveils actionable insights for utilizing suggestion to enhance mental resilience and defend against manipulation.
 
Dr. Raz’s career includes roles as Canada Research Chair and Director of the Institute for Interdisciplinary Brain and Behavioral Sciences. A speaker and author, his insights on suggestion have been widely recognized by media and academic audiences. His work, grounded in extensive research and engaging storytelling, highlights the interconnectedness of suggestion with consciousness, memory, and identity.
 
Shermer and Raz discuss: the evolutionary basis of suggestibility, how brain imaging captures the power of suggestion, and the psychology behind hypnosis, meditation, and placebos. They discuss historical influences like Milgram’s obedience studies and explore suggestibility’s role in social contagions and cults. Raz also shares insights on psychedelics, neurofeedback, and using suggestion to manage conditions like ADHD, depression, and anxiety.

The Suggestible Brain

In the U.S. alone, more than $400 billion are donated to charity each year—equivalent to two percent of American GDP. This generosity is wonderful, but these gifts don’t do nearly as much good as they could. In recent years, researchers have started studying the effectiveness of different charities, just as investors study the effectiveness of different companies. These researchers ask questions like: How much money does it cost for this charity to save someone’s life? The answers are stunning. Charity experts estimate that the most effective charities are about 100 times more effective than typical charities. For example, you can do more good by donating $100 to a highly effective charity than by donating $10,000 to a typical charity.
 
Shermer and Greene discuss effective altruism, evidence-based philanthropy, and GivingMultiplier’s unique model for maximizing charitable impact. They explore moral judgment theories, from deontology to consequentialism, and delve into complex topics like donor fatigue, public vs. private solutions, abortion, capital punishment, and political polarization. Greene shares practical insights into addressing societal divides and inspiring collective action.
 
Joshua Greene is a Professor of Psychology at Harvard, where he teaches “Evolving Morality: From Primordial Soup to Superintelligent Machines,” one of the university’s most popular courses. He is also the author of Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason, and the Gap Between Us and Them, which integrates moral philosophy, psychology, and neuroscience to explain the underlying causes of modern conflict. Josh’s latest applied research has led to novel, evidence-based strategies for reducing political animosity and inspiring thousands of people to support nonprofits addressing extreme poverty, climate change, and other pressing societal issues. His new organization is GivingMultiplier.org.

Evidence-Based Charity and Moral Psychology

William Green delves into the lives of iconic investors like Buffett, Munger, and Templeton, unraveling how their approaches extend beyond financial success. These super-investors possess unique skills such as rigorous thinking, resilience, and intuition. Through years of interviews, Green reveals how their principles can improve decision-making, manage risks, and help us thrive in uncertain environments.
 
William Green has written for top publications like Time, Forbes, and The Economist, and edited Time’s Asian and European editions. He coauthored several books, including Guy Spier’s The Education of a Value Investor. Born in London, he studied English at Oxford and earned a journalism master’s at Columbia. Now based in New York, he lives with his family. His latest book is Richer, Wiser, Happier: How the World’s Greatest Investors Win in Markets and Life.
 
Shermer and Green discuss the financial literacy of Americans, the mechanics of wealth creation, and the psychology behind investment decisions. They cover the stock market, the importance of resilience, and the relationship between money, happiness, and luck. The conversation includes wisdom from legendary investors, the power of compound interest, and practical strategies for financial independence.

How the Greatest Investors Win in Life and Markets

It’s clear states, borders, and countries constantly evolve. But how do countries form? And what does it take to start a new one?
 
In this episode, Michael interviews Erick Brimen, founder of Prospera, a project dedicated to creating Special Economic Zones that foster economic growth through free-market governance.
 
Brimen shares insights into the challenges of governance in developing nations, lessons learned from Venezuela’s economic collapse (despite the country having the world’s largest oil reserves), and successful governance models in places like Dubai (a small desert fishing and pearl diving village until the early 1970s) and Hong Kong (under British rule until 1997).

How to Start a New Country

In this episode, Kurt Gray offers a groundbreaking perspective on the moral mind, challenging the assumption that liberals and conservatives have radically different moral foundations.
 
Drawing on the latest science, he reveals that everyone’s moral judgments stem from feelings of vulnerability to harm. We all care about protecting ourselves and others, but conflict arises when we perceive harm differently. Gray explores how moral outrage is triggered when we disagree about who the “real” victim is, whether in political debates, personal conflicts, or even everyday situations.

What Are We Really Fighting Over? Understanding Outrage Through Moral Psychology

Just as surgeons once believed pain was good for their patients, some argue today that death brings meaning to life. But given humans rarely live beyond a century (while certain whales can thrive for over two hundred years) it’s hard not to see our biological limits as profoundly unfair. No wonder then that most people nearing death wish they still had more time.
 
Yet, with ever-advancing science, will the ends of our lives always loom so close?
 
Ariel Zeleznikow-Johnston is a neuroscientist at Monash University, Australia, where he investigates methods for characterizing the nature of conscious experiences. His research interests range from the decline, preservation and rescue of cognitive function at different stages of the lifespan.

What if Death Isn’t the End? The Science of Forever

Dr. Rachel Toles, a licensed forensic psychologist, delves into the psychology of criminals, addressing the motivations behind some of the world’s most notorious killers. Her expertise spans trauma, addiction, and impulse control, culminating in her upcoming U.S. theater tour, The Psychology of a Murderer. Through captivating case studies, Toles sheds light on the dark corners of human behavior.
 
In her show and forthcoming book, Toles examines the pathways leading ordinary people to commit extraordinary violence. She explores infamous cases, including Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Manson, while revealing a proprietary formula for understanding evil. Her work intertwines cutting-edge psychology with gripping storytelling, leaving audiences both disturbed and enlightened.
 
Shermer and Toles discuss the psychology of mass murderers, causes of evil, and the fascination with true crime. They analyze infamous killers like Dahmer, the Menendez Brothers, and Manson, exploring traits like narcissism and psychopathy. Topics include experiments like Milgram’s and the Stanford Prison Study, factors driving violence, and why ordinary individuals can commit atrocities.

The Psychology of Serial Killers

Amid rising concerns about AI, inequality, trade wars, and globalization, New Yorker staff writer and Pulitzer Prize finalist John Cassidy takes a bold approach: he tells the story of capitalism through its most influential critics.
 
From the Luddites and early communists to the Wages for Housework movement and modern degrowth advocates, Cassidy’s global narrative features both iconic thinkers—Smith, Marx, Keynes—and lesser-known voices like Flora Tristan, J.C. Kumarappa, and Samir Amin.
 
John Cassidy has been a staff writer at The New Yorker since 1995. He writes a regular column, The Financial Page. He holds degrees from Oxford, Columbia, and New York Universities. His new book is Capitalism and Its Critics: A History from the Industrial Revolution to AI.

AI, Trade Wars, Degrowth: What's Next for the Global Economy?

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