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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Stephen J. Dubner uncovers the hidden side of everything. Why is it safer to fly in an airplane than drive a car? How do we decide whom to marry? Why is the media so full of bad news? Also: things you never knew you wanted to know about wolves, bananas, pollution, search engines, and the quirks of human behavior.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Freakonomics Radio

The N.F.L. is a powerful cartel with imperial desires. College football is about to undergo a financial reckoning. So maybe they should team up? (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES:DeMaurice Smith • , former executive director of the National Football League Players Association.
Domonique Foxworth • , sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
Jeffrey Kessler • , partner at the law firm of Winston & Strawn.
Oliver Luck • , sports executive and consultant.
Victor Matheson • , professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross.

 

RESOURCES:Turf Wars: The Fight for the Soul of America's Game, • by DeMaurice Smith (2025).
 • "
Is there a Case for Subsidizing Sports Stadiums? • " by Victor Matheson (
Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
America’s Hidden Duopoly • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).
 • "
Should the U.S. Merge With Mexico? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2014).

 
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648. The Merger You Never Knew You Wanted

In this episode we first published in 2021, the political scientist Yuen Yuen Ang argues that different forms of government create different styles of corruption — and that the U.S. and China have more in common than we’d like to admit.

 

SOURCES:Yuen Yuen Ang • , professor of political science at Johns Hopkins University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
China’s Anti-Graft Show Is Educational, With Unintended Lessons • ," by Li Yuan (
The New York Times • , 2022).
China’s Gilded Age: The Paradox of Economic Boom and Vast Corruption • , by Yuen Yuen Ang (2020).
 • "
A Fair Assessment of China’s IP Protection • ," by Shang-Jin Wei and Xinding Yu (
Project Syndicate, • 2019).
The Bankers' New Clothes: What's Wrong with Banking and What to Do about It • , by Anat Admati (2013).
 • "
A Fistful of Dollars: Lobbying and the Financial Crisis • ," by Deniz Igan, Prachi Mishra, and Thierry Tressel (2011).

 

EXTRAS: • "
China Is Run by Engineers. America Is Run by Lawyers • ." by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
American Culture series • by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 
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Is the U.S. Really Less Corrupt Than China? (Update)

In his new book “Breakneck,” Dan Wang argues that the U.S. has a lot to learn from China. He also says that “no two peoples are more alike.” We have questions.

 

SOURCES:Dan Wang • , research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, author of 
Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future.
 

RESOURCES:Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future, • by Dan Wang (2025).
The Anaconda in the Chandelier: Writings on China, • by Perry Link (2025).
 • "
Is the U.S. Ready for the Next War? • " by Dexter Filkins 
(The New Yorker, • 2025).
 • "
How smartphones made Shenzhen China’s innovation capital • ," by Dan Wang (2016).
How China Escaped the Poverty Trap, • by Yuen Yuen Ang (2016).
The Art of Not Being Governed, • by Jame Scott (2009).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Engineering State and the Lawyerly Society: Dan Wang on his new book 'Breakneck • ,'" by the 
Sinica Podcast • (2025).
 • "
Is the U.S. Really Less Corrupt Than China? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 
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647. China Is Run by Engineers. America Is Run by Lawyers.

A lot of jobs in the modern economy don’t pay a living wage, and some of those jobs may be wiped out by new technologies. So what’s to be done? We revisit an episode from 2016 for a potential solution.

 

SOURCES:Erik Brynjolfsson • , professor of economics at Stanford University.
Evelyn Forget • , professor of economics and community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.
Sam Altman • , C.E.O. of OpenAI.
Robert Gordon • , professor emeritus of economics at Northwestern University.
Greger Larson • , professor of archeology at the University of Oxford.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Here's what a Sam Altman-backed basic income experiment found • ," by Megan Cerullo 
(CBS News, • 2024).
Utopia for Realists, • by Rutger Bregman. The Correspondent (2016).
The Second Machine Age, • by Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee (2014).
 • "
The Town With No Poverty: Using Health Administration Data To Revisit Outcomes of a Canadian Guaranteed Annual Income Field Experiment • ," by Evelyn Forget (
Canadian Public Policy • , 2011).
 • "
The Negative Income Tax and the Evolution of U.S. Welfare Policy • ," by Robert Moffitt (
Journal of Economic Perspectives, • 2003).
Capitalism and Freedom • , by Milton Freidman (2002).
 • "
Lesson from the Income Maintenance Experiments • ," 
(Federal Reserve Bank of Boston and The Brookings Institution • , 1986).
Law, Legislation and Liberty, Volume 3: The Political Order of A Free People • , by Frederick Hayek (1981).
 • "
Daniel Moynihan and President-elect Nixon: How charity didn't begin at home • ," by Peter Passell and Leonard Ross (
New York Times • , 1973).
 • "
Income Maintenance Programs • ," (
Hearings Before The Subcommittee On Fiscal Policy Of The Joint Economic Committee Congress Of The United States • , 1968).

 

EXTRAS: • "
President Nixon Unveils the Family Assistance Program • ," (1969).
 • "
Milton Friedman interview with William F Buckley Jr • .,"
 • (1968).
 • "
Martin Luther King Jr. advocates for Guaranteed Income at Stanford • ,"
 • (1967).

 
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Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? (Update)

What does it take to “play 3D chess at 250 miles an hour”? And how far will $12.5 billion of “Big, Beautiful” funding go toward modernizing the F.A.A.? (Part two of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES:David Strayer • , professor of cognition and neural science at the University of Utah.
Dorothy Robyn • , senior fellow at I.T.I.F.
Ed Bastian • , C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.
Ed Bolen • , president and C.E.O. of the National Business Aviation Association.
John Strong • , professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.
 • Kenneth Levin, retired air traffic controller.
Olivia Grace • , former product manager at Slack.
Polly Trottenberg • , former deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

RESOURCES: • “
An Air Traffic Controller Speaks Out About Newark Airport • ,” by 
The Journal • (2025).
 • "
Why Did Air Traffic Control Reform Efforts Fail (Again)? • " by Jeff Davis (
Eno Center for Transportation, • 2023).
 • "
Supertaskers: Profiles in extraordinary multitasking ability • ," by Jason Watson and David Strayer (
Psychonomic Bulletin & Review, • 2021).
Managing the Skies: Public Policy, Organization, and Financing of Air Traffic Management, • by John Strong and Clinton Oster (2016).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Multitasking Doesn't Work. So Why Do We Keep Trying? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 
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646. An Air Traffic Controller Walks Into a Radio Studio ...

Flying in the U.S. is still exceptionally safe, but the system relies on outdated tech and is under tremendous strain. Six experts tell us how it got this way and how it can (maybe) be fixed. (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES:Dorothy Robyn • , senior fellow at I.T.I.F.
Ed Bastian • , C.E.O. of Delta Airlines.
John Strong • , professor of finance and economics at the William and Mary School of Business.
 • Kenneth Levin, retired air traffic controller.
Polly Trottenberg • , former deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Brand New Air Traffic Control System Plan," • (
Federal Aviation Administration, • 2025).
The Air Traffic Controller Workforce Imperative: Staffing Models and Their Implementation to Ensure Safe and Efficient Airspace Operations, • by the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (2025).
 • "
Annual Aviation Infrastructure Report: 2025 • ," by Marc Scribner 
(Reason Foundation, • 2025).
 • "
New air traffic academy died in Congress despite dire need for more staff • ," by Lori Aratani 
(The Washington Post, • 2025).
 • "
The Real Problem With the FAA • ," by Dorothy Robyn 
(The Atlantic, • 2025).
 • "
How Much Do Jet Aircraft Pay into the Airport and Airway Trust Fund to Fly from Dallas to D.C.?" • by Ann Henebery, (
Eno Center for Transportation • , 2018).
Managing the Skies, • by John Strong and Clinton Oster (2016).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Freakonomics Radio Takes to the Skies • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).
 • "
In Praise of Maintenance • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio ( • 2016).

 
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645. Is the Air Traffic Control System Broken?

Patrick Deneen, a political philosopher at Notre Dame, says yes. He was a Democrat for years, and has now come to be seen as an “ideological guru” of the Trump administration. But that only tells half the story ...

 

SOURCES:Patrick Deneen • , professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame.

 

RESOURCES: • "
The Ideological Gurus Battling for the Soul of Trump World • ," by Joshua Chaffin and Zusha Elinson 
(Wall Street Journal, • 2025).
 • "
Why the MAGA-DOGE coalition will hold • ," by Patrick Deneen 
(UnHerd, • 2025).
 • "
‘I Don’t Want to Violently Overthrow the Government. I Want Something Far More Revolutionary • ,’" by Ian Ward 
(POLITICO, • 2023).
Regime Change: Toward a Postliberal Future, • by Patrick Deneen (2023).
Why Liberalism Failed, • by Patrick Deneen (2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
In Search of the Real Adam Smith • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

 
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644. Has America Lost Its Appetite for the Common Good?

Bjørn Andersen has killed hundreds of minke whales. He tells us how he does it, why he does it, and what he thinks would happen if whale-hunting ever stopped. (This bonus episode is a follow-up to our series “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

 

SOURCES: • Bjørn Andersen, Norwegian whaler.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Digestive physiology of minke whales • ," by S.D. Mathiesen, T.H. Aagnes, W. Sørmo, E.S. Nordøy, A.S. Blix, M.A. Olsen 
(Developments in Marine Biology, • 1995).
 • "
Norway Is Planning to Resume Whaling Despite World Ban • ," by Craig Whitney 
(New York Times, • 1992).
 • "
Commission Votes to Ban Hunting of Whales • ," by Philip Shabecoff 
(New York Times, • 1982).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Everything You Never Knew About Whaling • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 
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Extra: A Modern Whaler Speaks Up (Update)

In the final episode of our whale series, we learn about fecal plumes, shipping noise, and why Moby-Dick is still worth reading. (Part 3 of "Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.")

 

SOURCES:Michele Baggio • , professor of economics at the University of Connecticut.
Mary K. Bercaw-Edwards • , professor of maritime English at the University of Connecticut and lead foreman at the Mystic Seaport Museum.
Hester Blum • , professor of English at Washington University in St. Louis.
Eric Hilt • , professor of economics at Wellesley College.
Kate O’Connell • , senior policy consultant for the marine life program at the Animal Welfare Institute.
Maria Petrillo • , director of interpretation at the Mystic Seaport Museum.
Joe Roman • , fellow and writer-in-residence at the Gund Institute for Environment, University of Vermont.

 

RESOURCES:Eat, Poop, Die: How Animals Make Our World, • by Joe Roman (2023).
 • “
Racial Diversity and Team Performance: Evidence from the American Offshore Whaling Industry • ,” by Michele Baggio and Metin M. Cosgel (
S.S.R.N., • 2023).
 • “
Why 23 Dead Whales Have Washed Up on the East Coast Since December • ,” by Tracey Tully and Winston Choi-Schagrin (
The New York Times, • 2023).
 • “
Suspected Russia-Trained Spy Whale Reappears Off Sweden’s Coast • ,” by A.F.P. in Stockholm (
The Guardian, • 2023).
 • “
International Trade, Noise Pollution, and Killer Whales • ,” by M. Scott Taylor and Fruzsina Mayer (
N.B.E.R. Working Paper, • 2023).
 • “
World-First Map Exposes Growing Dangers Along Whale Superhighways • ,” by the World Wildlife Fund (2022).
 • “
Lifting Baselines to Address the Consequences of Conservation Success • ,” by Joe Roman, Meagan M. Dunphy-Daly, David W. Johnston, and Andrew J. Read (
Trends in Ecology & Evolution, • 2015).
 • “
Wages, Risk, and Profits in the Whaling Industry • ,” by Elmo P. Hohman (
The Quarterly Journal of Economics, • 1926).
Moby-Dick, • by Herman Melville (1851).

 

EXTRAS: • “
Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? (Update) • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • “
How Much Does Discrimination Hurt the Economy? • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 
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What Can Whales Teach Us About Clean Energy, Workplace Harmony, and Living the Good Life? (Update)

For years, whale oil was used as lighting fuel, industrial lubricant, and the main ingredient in (yum!) margarine. Whale meat was also on a few menus. But today, demand for whale products is at a historic low. And yet some countries still have a whaling industry. We find out why. (Part 2 of “Everything You Never Knew About Whaling.”)

 

SOURCES:Jay Alabaster • , doctoral student at Arizona State University’s Walter Cronkite School of Journalism.
Bjorn Basberg • , professor emeritus of economic history at the Norwegian School of Economics.
Eric Hilt • , professor of economics at Wellesley College.
Kate O’Connell • , senior policy consultant for the marine life program at the Animal Welfare Institute.
Paul Watson • , environmental activist and founder of the Sea Shepherd Conservation Society.

 

RESOURCES: • “
The Soviet Union Killed an Appalling Number of Whales. I Wanted to Know Why • ,” by Ryan Tucker Jones (
Slate, • 2022).
 • “
Behind the Smile: The Multi-Billion Dollar Dolphin Entertainment Industry • ,” by World Animal Protection (2019).
 • “
Japan to Resume Commercial Whaling, Defying International Ban • ,” by Daniel Victor (
The New York Times, • 2018).
 • “
Why Is There Not More Outrage About Japan’s Barbaric Practice of Whaling? • ” by Boris Johnson (
The Telegraph, • 2018).
 • “
Margarine Once Contained a Whole Lot More Whale • ,” by Sarah Laskow (
Gastro Obscura, • 2017).
 • “
3 Million Whales Were Killed in the 20th Century: Report • ,” (
N.B.C. News, • 2015).
 • “
The Spectacular Rise and Fall of U.S. Whaling: An Innovation Story • ,” by Derek Thompson (
The Atlantic, • 2012).
In Pursuit of Leviathan: Technology, Institutions, Productivity, and Profits in American Whaling, 1816-1906 • , by Lance E. Davis, Robert E. Gallman, and Karin Gleiter (1997).
 • “
Norway Is Planning to Resume Whaling Despite World Ban • ,” by Craig R. Whitney (
The New York Times, • 1992).

 

EXTRAS: • “
The First Great American Industry • ,” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 
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Why Do People Still Hunt Whales? (Update)

New York City’s mayor calls them “public enemy number one.” History books say they caused the Black Death — although recent scientific evidence disputes that claim. So is the rat a scapegoat? And what does our rat hatred say about us? (Part one of a three-part series.)

 

SOURCES:Bethany Brookshire • , author of 
Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains.Kathy Corradi • , director of rodent mitigation for New York City.
Ed Glaeser • , professor of economics at Harvard University.
Nils Stenseth • , professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Oslo.

 

RESOURCES: • "
On Patrol With the Rat Czar, • " by Mark Chiusano 
(Intelligencer, • 2024).
 • "
How Rats Took Over North America, • " by Allison Parshall 
(Scientific American, • 2024).
 • "
Where Are the Rats in New York City, • " by Matt Yan 
(New York Times, • 2024).
"Pests: How Humans Create Animal Villains" • by Bethany Brookshire (2023).
 • "
Human ectoparasites and the spread of plague in Europe during the Second Pandemic, • " by Nils Stenseth, Katharine Dean, Fabienne Krauer, Lars Walløe, Ole Christian Lingjærde, Barbara Bramanti, and Boris Schmid 
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Freakonomics Radio Live: 'Jesus Could Have Been a Pigeon.' • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

 
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622. Why Does Everyone Hate Rats?

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