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The Curiosity Department

Design Better co-hosts Eli Woolery and Aarron Walter explore the intersection of design, technology, and the creative process through conversations with guests across many creative fields, helping you hone your craft, unlock your creativity, and learn the art of collaboration.
Whether you’re design curious or a design pro, Design Better is guaranteed to inspire and inform. Vanity Fair calls Design Better, “sharp, to the point, and full of incredibly valuable information for anyone looking to better understand how to build a more innovative world.”

Design Better

Visit our Substack for bonus content and more: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/rewind-paola-antonelli

Design Better has been on the road recently, recording a live episode in Manhattan for design search firm Wert & Co’s 30th anniversary. Guests for the episode included Paola Antonelli (senior curator in the Department of Architecture and Design at MoMA) Mike Davidson (VP of Design and User Research at Microsoft AI), Kate Aronowitz (Design Partner at Google Ventures), Meaghan Choi (Product Designer at Anthropic), & Mark Wilson (Global Design Editor at Fast Company).

While Aarron and I are catching up from travel, and as a lead-in to the live episode airing next week, we’re rewinding to our interview with Paola Antonelli. We hope you enjoy the episode.

And if you haven’t checked it out yet, did you know you can save over $1600 on popular productivity tools and design and AI courses with the Design Better Toolkit? Just head over to dbtr.co/toolkit to learn more.

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The Museum of Modern Art brings to mind images of Van Gough’s Starry Night, Salvador Dali’s Persistence of Memory, and Andy Warhol’s Campbell Soup Cans. But thanks to Paola Antonelli, senior curator in the Department of Architecture and Design, MoMA exhibitions also encompass the role design has played in shaping culture and the human experience.

We talk with Paola about how we can look at digital design through a historic lens, some of the most important design movements in the past 100 years, and how the creative process has evolved through these different movements.

We also talk about the history of the @ symbol, why craftsmanship is necessary to experimentation, and some of the current challenges in design education.

We hope you enjoy this episode which is a part of our series on design history, with upcoming episodes on typography with Jonathan Hoefler, and the history and philosophy of design with Professor Barry Katz.

Paola Antonelli joined The Museum of Modern Art in 1994 and is the Museum’s Senior Curator in the Department of Architecture and Design, as well as MoMA’s founding Director of Research and Development. Her work investigates design in all its forms, from architecture to video games, often expanding its reach to include overlooked objects and practices.

An architect trained at the Polytechnic of Milan and a pasionaria of design, Antonelli has been named one of the 25 most incisive design visionaries in the world by TIME magazine, has earned the Design Mind Smithsonian Institution’s National Design Award, has been inducted in the US Art Directors Club Hall of Fame, and has received the AIGA (American Institute of Graphic Artists,) the London Design Medal, and the German Design Award, among other accolades.

Rewind: Paola Antonelli: How design shapes culture

This is a preview of a premium episode on Design Better. To listen to the whole episode, head to our Substack: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/keith-sawyer

The key to creativity isn’t about having brilliant ideas in isolation, but about cultivating our ability to observe the world around us, and make the intuitive leaps that connect disparate ideas. Keith Sawyer, a creativity researcher who spent over a decade interviewing hundreds of art and design professors and students to understand how creative professionals learn to see—and think—differently, writes about this in his new book, Learning to See.

Keith brings a unique perspective to creativity research. A jazz pianist turned MIT computer science graduate, he designed video games in the early 1980s before pivoting to study the science of creativity under the legendary Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi at the University of Chicago. His latest book challenges common myths about the creative process and reveals why the most successful artists and designers don’t start with a vision—they discover it through an iterative dialogue with their work.

In our conversation, Keith shares insights from his research on improvisational creativity, explains why ambiguity is essential to the creative process, and discusses how AI is reshaping—but not replacing—human creativity.

Bio

Dr. Keith Sawyer is the Morgan Distinguished Professor in Educational Innovations at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Dr. Sawyer is one of the world’s leading creativity researchers. He’s studied jazz ensembles, Chicago improv theater, children’s play, and creative classrooms. He’s published 20 books, including Group Genius: The Creative Power of Collaboration and Zig Zag: The Surprising Path to Greater Creativity.

Books & Links mentioned:

 
The Science of Creativity, Keith Sawyer’s podcast (and his Substack).

 
Flow and Creativity by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi:

 
Creative Confidence by Tom Kelley and David Kelley

 
The Artist’s Way by Julia Cameron

The Creative Act by Rick Rubin

Premium Episodes on Design Better

This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books:

You’ll also get access to our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show. And subscribers at the annual level now get access to the Design Better Toolkit, which gets you major discounts and free access to tools and courses that will help you unlock new skills, make your workflow more efficient, and take your creativity further.

Upgrade to paid

Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Saily: Saily solves the hassle of staying connected while traveling by offering affordable, data-only eSIM plans that activate seamlessly when you arrive—no physical SIM swap needed. Plus, it layers in built-in security features like ad blocking, web protection, and virtual location for safer browsing on the go.

Keith Sawyer: Become more creative by learning to see

Visit our Substack for bonus content and more: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/jae-park

As designers and creatives, many of us spent years of our career looking at blank canvases and attempting to find the best place to start solving the problems in front of us. Now that AI can churn out designs and imagery, not to mention writing, video, and even music in seconds, what are we losing from the friction that is being removed from the creative process?

Our guest today, Jae Park, VP of Digital Product Design at Ford's Electric Vehicle Digital Design division, posed this question to us. Jae previously led design teams at Microsoft, Amazon, and Google—companies that epitomize the "move fast and break things" mentality of Silicon Valley. But he questions whether our obsession with speed is actually how we want to live.

We talk with Jae about the "valley" between disruptions, why Ford's pivot to affordable EVs matters for American manufacturing, how Gen Alpha will reshape our expectations of vehicles, and why the Socratic method might be more important than any design tool in the age of AI.

Jae also discusses what might be his most complex challenge yet: helping a 120-year-old automotive icon compete in an era where, as he puts it, "the phone and the car are becoming the same thing"—at least in rapidly evolving markets like China.

Bio

Jae Park is a design leader with a track record of building teams and driving innovation at the intersection of business, technology, and human needs. At Ford’s EVDD group, he leads cross-functional designers shaping the company’s digital product strategy to make mobility a fundamental right while advancing sustainability. His career includes inspiring new ways of working at Google, creating the award-winning Metro design system at Microsoft, and leading the invention of Amazon’s Echo Show, which defined a new multimodal product category.

Guided by a belief that innovation begins with people, Jae’s leadership style emphasizes curiosity, collaboration, and empowerment. He nurtures diverse teams of designers and technologists, ensuring they have the perspective and support to create products that serve humanity and improve the world at scale.

***

Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Saily: Saily solves the hassle of staying connected while traveling by offering affordable, data-only eSIM plans that activate seamlessly when you arrive—no physical SIM swap needed. Plus, it layers in built-in security features like ad blocking, web protection, and virtual location for safer browsing on the go.

Download their app on your phone and you can buy an eSIM before you fly so you’re connected the minute you land. And if you’re traveling between countries, you only need one eSIM. You can get a global or a regional plan and travel with the same eSIM plan.

Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code DESIGNBETTER at checkout. Download Saily app or go to ⁠https://saily.com/designbetter⁠

Jae Park: Designing a new generation of vehicles at Ford, and why friction matters in the creative process

This is a preview of a premium episode. To hear the full episode, head to our Substack: ⁠https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/astro-teller-and-ivo-stivoric-why⁠

When a company talks about taking a “moonshot,” it often ends up being something trivial: a new emoji keyboard, or delivering a pizza in less than 30 minutes.

But at X, the Moonshot Factory, which is part of Google, they’re tackling some of the world’s thorniest problems: sustainably feeding the world’s population, climate change, education, and much more.

Today we’re speaking with Astro Teller, Captain of Moonshots, and Ivo Stivoric, Vice President at X. Astro has a PhD in artificial intelligence from Carnegie Mellon and wrote a prophetic 1997 novel about AI called Exegesis. He's the grandson of Edward Teller of Manhattan Project fame, but his own legacy is built on creating protected spaces where multidisciplinary teams can tackle humanity's biggest challenges—from self-driving cars to internet access delivered by balloons.

Ivo leads a portfolio focused on climate, sustainability, and social justice. A designer by training who cut his teeth in the early days of wearable computing at Carnegie Mellon's Engineering Design Research Center, Ivo brings a unique perspective on bridging human needs with breakthrough technology. Together with Astro, he co-founded BodyMedia, one of the pioneering companies in wearable health monitors, which was later acquired by Jawbone.

We chat with Astro and Ivo about how they've maintained one of tech's longest creative partnerships, why moonshots require unlearning everything you know about building products, and how they're using their "moonshot factory" push the boundaries of what's possible when you combine emerging technology with empathy for human needs.

Links

https://x.company/projects/tidal/

https://x.company/moonshotpodcast/

***

Premium Episodes on Design Better

This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books:

You’ll also get access to our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show. And subscribers at the annual level now get access to the Design Better Toolkit, which gets you major discounts and free access to tools and courses that will help you unlock new skills, make your workflow more efficient, and take your creativity further.

Upgrade to paid

***

Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Saily: Saily solves the hassle of staying connected while traveling by offering affordable, data-only eSIM plans that activate seamlessly when you arrive—no physical SIM swap needed. Plus, it layers in built-in security features like ad blocking, web protection, and virtual location for safer browsing on the go.

Download their app on your phone and you can buy an eSIM before you fly so you’re connected the minute you land. And if you’re traveling between countries, you only need one eSIM. You can get a global or a regional plan and travel with the same eSIM plan.

Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code DESIGNBETTER at checkout. Download Saily app or go to ⁠https://saily.com/designbetter⁠

Astro Teller & Ivo Stivoric: Why moonshots require unlearning everything you know

Find bonus content and more on our Substack: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/henry-modisett

AI isn’t just another layer in our digital toolkit—it’s reshaping the tools themselves, and in the process, transforming how we work, think, and solve problems.

Henry Modisett, VP of Design at Perplexity, is in a unique position to challenge many of the norms that have shaped tech for some time now. Perplexity just released a beautiful new browser called Comet that puts AI at the heart of the user experience. We have been thoroughly impressed with it all ready.

As a designer with a computer science background, Henry takes a unique approach to his work. Rather than designing in Figma like most of us mortals, he and his team design in React, building working versions of interfaces so they can use it while they shape it.

Henry shares how his team approaches the design of AI-native products, and why traditional UX patterns often fall short in this new landscape. We explore the role of curiosity in AI interaction, how transparency and trust are earned (not assumed), and why embracing ambiguity might just be the most human-centered design move of all.

By the way, you may have heard that we just launched the Design Better Toolkit, a collection of resources we love and use regularly. The Toolkit gets you major discounts and free access to tools and courses that will help you unlock new skills, make your workflow more efficient, and take your creativity further.

Perplexity just happens to be a part of this bundle. You’ll get 6 months free of Perplexity Pro (an $180 value), as well as credits and discounts on tools like Airtable, Read AI, and other tools, and courses like Prototyping with Cursor and more. To get access you’ll need to be a Design Better Premium member at the annual subscription level. Visit dbtr.co/toolkit to learn more.

Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code DESIGNBETTER at checkout. Download Saily app or go to https://saily.com/designbetter

Henry Modisett: Perplexity’s VP of Design on embracing ambiguity and leading with curiosity

This is a preview of a premium episode on Design Better. Head to our Substack to get access to the full episode: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/elizabeth-lin

Have you played around with Cursor? If not, it’s time. Designers with no coding skills are passing Cursor Figma files and getting working apps out the other side. And if you have no design, you can just prompt this AI powered development environment to get a solid prototype of your idea.

Elizabeth Lin, founder of Design is a Party, recognizes that Cursor is going to expand the capabilities of designers. She’s built a course that introduces designers to Cursor and challenges you to build while you design.

We talk with Elizabeth about how she's using AI tools like Cursor to help designers prototype faster than ever before, why she thinks now might be the perfect time to try something new in your career, and what's missing from traditional design education. Elizabeth also shares what she's learned about "vibe coding," why debugging is the hardest skill for new students to master, and how she's building a business around the idea that learning should feel more like a party than work.

By the way, you may have heard that we just launched the Design Better Toolkit, a collection of resources we love and use regularly. The Toolkit gets you major discounts and free access to tools and courses that will help you unlock new skills, make your workflow more efficient, and take your creativity further.

One of Elizabeth’s courses, Prototyping with Cursor, just happens to be a part of this bundle. You’ll get $100 off her course, as well as a $500 credit towards Airtable, discounts on Read.ai, Perplexity, Miro, and other tools, and discounts on other courses from platforms like ShiftNudge. To get access you’ll need to be a Design Better Premium member at the annual subscription level. Visit dbtr.co/toolkit to learn more.

Bio

Elizabeth is a design educator with 10 years of experience whose love for design began in the early internet days of Neopets, creating playful graphics and websites with tools like MS Paint. She went on to study computer science at UC Berkeley, where she discovered a community of design enthusiasts and began teaching her first course on Illustrator and Photoshop as a sophomore. That experience sparked a lasting passion for teaching, which she continued to pursue through workshops and courses during her time at Berkeley.

After graduating, Elizabeth worked as a product designer at education-focused companies like Khan Academy and Primer, designing tools for teachers and students while expanding her perspective on learning. In 2023, she founded Design is a Party, an alternative design school that reflects her playful yet rigorous approach to teaching. Since then, she has launched a two-course series on visual design, developed portfolio-building resources, and led workshops to help the next generation of designers grow their craft.

Elizabeth Lin: Rethinking design education in the age of AI

Most designers are comfortable in the world of known problems—we talk to users, gather insights, iterate based on feedback. But what happens when you're designing for a future that doesn't exist yet? When you're creating products for people who haven't been born, or technologies that might not emerge for years?

Today's guest has spent decades designing for the future, a space where design specs are ambiguous at best. Nick Foster led design at Google X where he worked on over 200 moonshot projects, from flying machines to nuclear fusion.

Nick has written a provocative new book that provides helpful guidance on how we might approach designing for the unknown. In Could, Should, Might, Don't: How We Think About the Future, he argues that we've fallen into predictable patterns of thinking that are actually making us worse at anticipating what's coming next.

We chat with Nick about why most futures thinking falls into one of four problematic categories, and the importance of ethics in designing for the future. We also talk about the hidden dangers of "numeric fiction" and data-driven predictions, what he learned working with PhD scientists who had never met a designer, and why Silicon Valley's obsession with KPIs is killing long-term thinking.

Bio

Nick Foster RDI is a Futures Designer based in Oakland, California.

He has spent his career exploring the future for globally renowned technology companies including Apple, Google, Nokia, Sony and Dyson. As Head of Design at Google X, he led a team of designers, researchers and prototypers developing nascent technologies such as brain-controlled computer interfaces, intelligent robotics, stratospheric internet balloons and neighborhood-scale nuclear fusion.

Despite the ambitious nature of much of Nick’s work, he’s well known for his down-to-earth and occasionally irreverent approach to the future, and in 2013 he coined the term Future Mundane. In 2018, Fortune magazine described him as ‘one of the world’s foremost leaders in speculative design’ and in 2021 he was awarded the title Royal Designer for Industry - the highest accolade for a British designer - in recognition of his significant contributions to the discipline. He’s also an accomplished writer and public speaker, producing multiple books and sharing his thinking about the future with audiences across the globe.

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Premium Episodes on Design Better

This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books:

You’ll also get access to our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

Upgrade to paid

***

Nick Foster: Could, Should, Might, Don't—a new way to think about designing for the future

This is a preview of a premium episode. Head to Design Better to hear the whole thing: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/tim-brown

Sometimes your career takes an unexpected turn—and that pivot can lead to something bigger than you imagined.

Tim Brown, co-founder of Allbirds, has been there. After a stint as a professional soccer player, Tim found himself on a different path—one that led to creating a simple wool sneaker that would grow into a movement for sustainable fashion.

We spoke with Tim about how he and his co-founder used design thinking to tackle everything from material innovation to business strategy, the importance of being transparent about both successes and failures, and what it really takes to start a mission-driven company. Tim also shares how his athletic background shaped his approach to leadership and why having constraints can actually fuel creativity.

Bio

Tim is the co-founder of Allbirds. He is the creative vision behind the brand, with an eye for all things design. Prior to co-founding Allbirds in 2016, Tim was part of the New Zealand soccer team that reached the 2010 World Cup – a generational achievement for the nation.

***

Premium Episodes on Design Better

This is a premium episode on Design Better. We release two premium episodes per month, along with two free episodes for everyone. Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books:

You’ll also get access to our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

Upgrade to paid

***

Visiting the links below is one of the best ways to support our show:

Miro: Miro’s Innovation Workspace is an intelligent platform that brings people and AI together in a shared space to do great work. Whether your role is UX, DesignOps, product management, marketing, or anything adjacent, Miro will help you be better at your job because it makes it easier to work together. Help your teams get great done with Miro. Check out Miro.com to find out how.

Masterclass: MasterClass is the only streaming platform where you can learn and grow with over 200+ of the world's best. People like Steph Curry, Paul Krugman, Malcolm Gladwell, Dianne Von Furstenberg, Margaret Atwood, Lavar Burton and so many more inspiring thinkers share their wisdom in a format that is easy to follow and can be streamed anywhere on a smartphone, computer, smart TV, or even in audio mode. MasterClass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to http://masterclass.com/designbetter for the current offer.

Tim Brown: Allbirds co-founder on mission-driven design and entrepreneurship

Visit our Substack for bonus content and more: https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/matt-raw

Matt Raw, Interim VP of Design at The New York Times, and his team have a tough job. Their work is seen by millions every day who come to the Times website and apps for information they can trust, presented clearly, across platforms, striking a stylistic balance between tradition and innovation. Somehow they approach the pressure of their work with grace.

n this episode, we talk with Matt about what it means to design for a mission-driven organization in a time of profound technological and cultural change. Matt shares how his team is navigating the tension between tradition and evolution, how they balance experimentation with editorial integrity, and why even the smallest interface details can carry the weight of institutional trust.

We also explore how the Times is adapting to new reader habits, the impact of generative AI on journalism and design, and why listening deeply to colleagues and readers remains a superpower for their team.

If you missed it earlier this month, Matt also interviewed us for an AMA at the Times’ headquarters in Manhattan.

Also, stay tuned after our conversation with Matt (or listen to the embedded audio below) for a special with the Australian design agency Noize uses Wix Studio to create amazing sites for top brands.

Bio

Matt Raw is a product design leader with over 15 years of experience creating user-centered digital products and services. As interim Vice President of Product Design Culture and Operations at The New York Times, he helps product designers thrive, runs design operations, and oversees the shared design studio. He has built and led teams of designers, managers, and leaders who deliver exceptional work spanning strategy to execution. Raw also teaches advanced UX fundamentals to MFA students at the School of Visual Arts, focusing on insight-centered problem definition and rapid validation through lightweight prototyping. His mission is empowering product designers to craft meaningful experiences for millions of users worldwide.

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Premium Episodes on Design Better

This ad-supported episode is available to everyone. If you’d like to hear it ad-free, upgrade to our premium subscription, where you’ll get an additional 2 ad-free episodes per month (4 total). Premium subscribers also get access to the documentary Design Disruptors and our growing library of books:

You’ll also get access to our monthly AMAs with former guests, ad-free episodes, discounts and early access to workshops, and our monthly newsletter The Brief that compiles salient insights, quotes, readings, and creative processes uncovered in the show.

Upgrade to paid

***

Matt Raw: Balancing legacy and innovation at The New York Times

Microscopes and telescopes

By Aarron Walter

A friend and former colleague called me recently to catch up and get my perspective on an important question. He leads a product team at a major tech company and the design team had just been moved under him. 

He’s an exceptional product thinker with a sharp grasp of engineering systems and shipping processes. But managing designers? That was new territory.

“Where should design really fit in our workflow?” he asked.

What struck me most was that he asked at all.

Too often, when design moves under product in a re-org, it becomes a service function. Something to be brought in after the big decisions are made—to polish the edges, add the visuals, and make things look good. That, of course, sells the value of design short, and my friend sensed it. He didn’t want design to just support the work of engineers. He wanted it to play a part in shaping the product.

So I shared what I’ve seen in organizations where engineering and design truly thrive together: it starts with recognizing that engineers and designers bring fundamentally different perspectives to the table.

***

To read the full version of The Brief, visit our Substack:

https://designbetterpodcast.com/p/the-brief-microscopes-and-telescopes

The Brief: Microscopes and telescopes

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