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Justin Kempf


Is it possible for a democracy to govern undemocratically? Can the people elect an undemocratic leader? Is it possible for democracy to bring about authoritarianism? And if so, what does this say about democracy? ​​My name is Justin Kempf. Every week I talk to the brightest minds on subjects like international relations, political theory, and history to explore democracy from every conceivable angle. Topics like civil resistance, authoritarian successor parties, and the autocratic middle class challenge our ideas about democracy. Join me as we unravel new topics every week.


Democracy Paradox

After an introductory conversation with Kellogg Faculty Fellow Marc Jacob, Democracy Paradox host Justin Kempf explores the dynamics of global democracy with renowned expert Thomas Carothers. Carothers, the director of the Carnegie Endowment's Democracy, Conflict, and Governance Program, shares his deep knowledge and firsthand experiences in democracy promotion, focusing on the importance of coalition-building, inclusive leadership, and long-term commitment in sustaining democratic movements. Drawing from case studies in Latin America, particularly Chile and Brazil, he provides thoughtful reflections on the challenges and successes of political activism. This conversation offers insights for scholars, policymakers, and activists dedicated to advancing resilient democratic institutions worldwide.

 The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. 

Read the full transcript here.

Tom Carothers is the Director of the Democracy Conflict and Governance Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. He's the author of numerous books and articles. Some of his most recent articles and reports include “Misunderstanding Democratic Backsliding,” “Lessons about Backsliding and Resistance,” and “Understanding and Responding to Global Democratic Backsliding.” 

Chapters

 • Introduction with Marc Jacob - 0:20
 • Explanations for Backsliding - 8:40
 • Role of Institutions - 24:28
 • Polarization - 37:31
 • Democratic Hardball - 39:24

Links:

Learn more about Marc Jacob.

Learn more about Thomas Carothers.

Learn more about the Democracy, Conflict, and Governance Program of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.

Support the show

Tom Carothers Says We Misunderstand Democratic Backsliding

Javier Corrales, professor of political science at Amherst College, discusses his recent research on democratic backsliding and intentional polarization. The discussion explores how leaders employ extremist policies and ideological rhetoric to consolidate executive power, drawing comparisons between Venezuela, the United States, and other global contexts. An introductory conversation with Kellogg Visiting Fellow Henry Moncrieff offers a nuanced look at opposition strategies and the complex factors shaping democratic resilience and decline.

Read the transcript here.

 The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute of the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. 

Javier Corrales is Dwight W. Morrow 1895 professor of Political Science at Amherst College in Amherst, Massachusetts. He is the author of the book Autocracy Rising: How Venezuela Transitioned to Authoritarianism as well as numerous scholarly articles. His most recent article (coauthored with Ricardo José Salas Díaz) is "Intentional Polarization: How Policy Extremism and Ideological Overuse Promote Democratic Backsliding" published in Democratization. 

Chapters

 • Introduction with Henry Moncrieff 0:20
 • Leaders Drive Polarization 5:48
 • Radicalization 15:43
 • Opposition Response 26:32
 • Role of the Public - 37:29

Learn more about Javier Corrales.

Learn more about Henry Moncrieff.

Learn more about the Kellogg Institute.

Support the show

Javier Corrales on Intentional Polarization

In this episode, Justin interviews Susan Stokes, the Tiffany and Margaret Blake Distinguished Service Professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago and Director of the Chicago Center on Democracy. They discuss her new book The Backsliders, which explains how economic inequality and political polarization create conditions that allow leaders to undermine democratic institutions. She explores the roles of populism, voter behavior, and institutional erosion in democratic backsliding worldwide.

Read the transcript here.

The Democracy Paradox is made in partnership with the Kellogg Institute at the Keough School of Global Affairs at the University of Notre Dame. 

Chapters

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Leadership - 3:51
 • Economic Inequality - 6:35
 • Polarization - 19:35
 • Populism - 27:27

Key Links

Learn more about Susan Stokes.

Backsliders: Why Leaders Undermine their Own Democracies

Victoria Murillo - The Social Underpinnings of Political Discontent in Latin America - September 23rd, 12:30pm - 2:00pm Central Time. If you can't make it, click here to watch the video!

Check out this year's visiting fellows to the Kellogg Institute here.

Support the show

Susan Stokes on Democratic Backsliders

We've often compared democratic national security and autocratic security making in terms of autocratic elites and democratic voters. My argument is not that all democracies are the same, but I do think we ought to be thinking about autocratic elites and democratic elites and voters.

Elizabeth Saunders

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Elizabeth Saunders is a Professor of Political Science at Columbia University as well as a non-resident senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. She is also an editor of The Good Authority Blog formerly known as The Monkey Cage Blog. Her most recent book is The Insiders’ Game: How Elites Make War and Peace.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • How Foreign Policy Works - 3:30
 • Politics at the Water's Edge - 18:13
 • Parties and Foreign Policy - 27:09
 • Contemporary Politics - 41:28

Key Links

The Insiders’ Game: How Elites Make War and Peace by Elizabeth Saunders

Good Authority Blog

Learn more about Elizabeth Saunders

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Rep Mikie Sherrill on Whether the Bipartisan Consensus on Foreign Policy Will Hold and on Threats to American Democracy

Grading Biden’s Foreign Policy with Alexander Ward

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at democracyparadoxblog@gmail.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

The Last Episode. Elizabeth Saunders on How Democracies Wage War and Make Peace

I think we've seen democracies can be unstable. Autocracies are even more unstable.

David Moss

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Archon Fung is the Winthrop Laflin McCormack Professor of Citizenship and Self-Government at the Harvard Kennedy School. He is also the Director of the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation.

David Moss is the Paul Whiton Cherington Professor at Harvard Business School. He is also founder and president of the Tobin Project and the Case Method Institute for Education and Democracy.

Arne Westad is the Elihu Professor of History and Global Affairs at Yale University.

They are the editors of When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Thinking about Democratic Breakdown - 3:51
 • What is Democracy - 19:26
 • Democratic Recovery - 26:36
 • Resilience and Fragility - 45:15

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"Introduction: When Democracy Breaks" by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

When Democracy Breaks: Scott Mainwaring on Argentina

When Democracy Breaks: 1930s Japan with Louise Young

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: Final Thoughts with Archon Fung, David Moss and Arne Westad

March 24th, 1976 is the coup and it unleashes wild celebrations in establishment Argentina and almost no opposition.... Of course, this unleashed the most ruthless dictatorship in Argentina's history and in recent South American history as well.

Scott Mainwaring

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Scott Mainwaring is the Eugene and Helen Conley Professor of Political Science at Notre Dame. He was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences in 2010. His most recent book is Democracy in Hard Places (coedited with Tarek Masoud). In April 2019, PS: Political Science and Politics listed him as one of the 50 most cited political scientists in the world.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democratization in 1973 - 3:41
 • Democratic Erosion - 18:30
 • Breakdown - 39:08
 • Argentina Today - 43:18

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"Democratic Breakdown in Argentina, 1976" by Scott Mainwaring

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Scott Mainwaring on Argentina and a Final Reflection on Democracy in Hard Places

When Democracy Breaks: 1930s Japan with Louise Young

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: Scott Mainwaring on Argentina

There's a fog of democratic breakdown where really you cannot see the actual impact of your choices or your actions until after the fact.

Louise Young

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Louise Young is a professor of history at the University of Wisonsin-Madison. She is the author of the chapter “The Breakdown of Democracy in 1930s Japan.” It is part of the volume When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democratization - 2:52
 • What Made it Different - 11:41
 • Democratic Breakdown - 20:14
 • Resisting Democratic Erosion - 37:15

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"The Breakdown in Democracy in 1930s Japan" by Louise Young

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

When Democracy Breaks: Ancient Athens with Josiah Ober and Federica Carugati

Dan Slater on Indonesia

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: 1930s Japan with Louise Young

What strikes me about that period is that democracy was not inevitable.

Federica Carugati

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Get your copy of When Democracy Breaks or read it open access.

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Josiah Ober is a Professor of Political Science and Classics at Stanford University. Federica Carugati is a Lecturer in History and Political Economy at King's College London. They are the coauthors of the chapter “Democratic Collapse and Recovery in Ancient Athens (413-403 BCE)” in a new book called When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Democratization - 3:28
 • Breakdown - 17:36
 • Rebirth - 36:48
 • Final Lessons - 47:51

Key Links

When Democracy Breaks: Studies in Democratic Erosion and Collapse, From Ancient Athens to the Present Day edited by Archon Fung, David Moss, and Odd Arne Westad

"Democratic Collapse and Recovery in Ancient Athens (413-403 BCE)" by Federica Carugati and Josiah Ober

Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Does Democracy Rely on a Civic Bargain? Josiah Ober Makes the Case

David Stasavage on Early Democracy and its Decline

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

When Democracy Breaks: Ancient Athens with Josiah Ober and Federica Carugati

I think that if you got rid of the Electoral College, in the short run, there would be losers. But it hasn't always been the same group and it hasn't always been the same party.

Alexander Keyssar

Made in partnership with the Ash Center for Democratic Governance and Innovation

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Alexander Keyssar is the Matthew W. Stirling Jr. Professor of History and Social Policy at Harvard University and the author of the book Why Do We Still Have the Electoral College?

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Origin of the Electoral College - 3:05
 • Proportional or District Electoral Votes - 17:37
 • Race and Civil Rights - 27:02
 • Why No Reform - 41:44

Key Links

Why Do We Still Have the Electoral College? by Alexander Keyssar

Watch Electoral College Symposium: What’s to be Done?

Follow Alexander Keyssar on X @AlexKeyssar

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Heather Cox Richardson on History, Conservatism, and the Awakening of American Democracy

Daniel Ziblatt on American Democracy, the Republican Party, and the Tyranny of the Minority

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

Alexander Keyssar on Why We Still Have the Electoral College

You actually have to fight in every generation, if you want to preserve liberalism. It's not just going to preserve itself. It's not just the end of history. It isn't just the final resting place of humanity - not by any stretch of the imagination. It's a continual struggle.

Robert Kagan

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Proudly sponsored by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Learn more at https://carnegieendowment.org

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Robert Kagan is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and a columnist for The Washington Post. He is the author of many books including most recently The Ghost at the Feast: America and the Collapse of World Order, 1900-1941 and Rebellion: How Antiliberalism Is Tearing America Apart--Again.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • Traditions of Liberalism and Antiliberalism - 3:04
 • Antiliberalism as an Idea - 8:35
 • Tension Within Ourselves - 21:25
 • Future of Liberalism and Antiliberalism - 37:42

Key Links

Rebellion: How Antiliberalism Is Tearing America Apart--Again by Robert Kagan

The Ghost at the Feast: America and the Collapse of World Order, 1900-1941 by Robert Kagan

Follow Robert Kagan at the Brookings Institution

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Robert Kagan Looks to American History to Explain Foreign Policy Today

Heather Cox Richardson on History, Conservatism, and the Awakening of American Democracy

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

Robert Kagan on the Threat of Antiliberalism

I think a powerful surveillance apparatus will continue to be a major obstacle to the development of democratic forces, but it will not be the decisive factor.

Minxin Pei

Proudly sponsored by the Kellogg Institute for International Studies. Learn more at https://kellogg.nd.edu

Access Episodes Ad-Free on Patreon

Make a one-time Donation to Democracy Paradox.

Read Justin Kempf's essay "The Revolution Will Be Podcasted."

A full transcript is available at www.democracyparadox.com.

Minxin Pei is the Tom and Margot Pritzker ’72 Professor of Government and George R. Roberts Fellow at Claremont McKenna College. His most recent book is The Sentinel State: Surveillance and the Survival of Dictatorship in China.

Key Highlights

 • Introduction - 0:20
 • What is a Surveillance State - 2:55
 • Informants - 12:02
 • History - 23:43
 • Surveillance and Elites - 35:26

Key Links

The Sentinel State: Surveillance and the Survival of Dictatorship in China by Minxin Pei

"Why China Can’t Export Its Model of Surveillance" by Minxin Pei in Foreign Affairs

"Totalitarianism’s Long Shadow" by Minxin Pei in Journal of Democracy

Democracy Paradox Podcast

Josh Chin on China’s Surveillance State

Deng Xiaoping is Not Who You Think He is. Joseph Torigian on Leadership Transitions in China and the Soviet Union

More Episodes from the Podcast

More Information

Apes of the State created all Music

Email the show at jkempf@democracyparadox.com

Follow on Twitter @DemParadox, Facebook, Instagram @democracyparadoxpodcast

100 Books on Democracy

Support the show

The Surveillance State in China Began With Mao Says Minxin Pei

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