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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Stephen J. Dubner uncovers the hidden side of everything. Why is it safer to fly in an airplane than drive a car? How do we decide whom to marry? Why is the media so full of bad news? Also: things you never knew you wanted to know about wolves, bananas, pollution, search engines, and the quirks of human behavior.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Freakonomics Radio

For most of human history, horsepower made the world go. Then came the machines. So why are there still seven million horses in America? (Part one of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”)

 

SOURCES:Ann N. Greene • , historian of 19th century America, retired professor at the University of Pennsylvania.
Constance Hunter • , chief economist at the Economist Intelligence Unit.
 • Elizabeth Bortuzzo, professional horse rider.
Mark Paul • , professor of economics at Rutgers University.
Peter Frankopan • , professor of global history at Oxford History.

 

RESOURCES: • "
2023 Economic Impact Study of the U.S. Horse Industry • ," (
American Horse Council Foundation • , 2024).
Riding to Arms, • by Charles Caramello (2022).
The Horse in the City, • by Clay McShane and Joel Tarr (2011).
Horses at Work, • by Ann Norton Greene (2008).

 
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651. The Ultimate Dance Partner

Spotify, Oracle, and Comcast have each recently announced they’re going with co-C.E.O.s. In this 2023 episode, we dig into the research and hear firsthand stories of triumph and disaster. Also: lessons from computer programmers, Simon and Garfunkel, and bears versus alligators. 

 

SOURCES:Jim Balsillie • , retired chairman and co-C.E.O. of Research In Motion.
Mike Cannon-Brookes • , co-founder and C.E.O. of Atlassian.
Scott Farquhar • , co-founder and former co-C.E.O. of Atlassian.
Marc Feigen • , C.E.O. advisor.
Jeffrey Sonnenfeld • , professor of management studies and senior associate dean at the Yale School of Management and founding president of the Chief Executive Leadership Institute.
Laurie Williams • , professor of computer science at North Carolina State University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Scott Farquhar to resign as joint CEO of Atlassian • ," by Jonathan Barrett 
(The Guardian, • 2024).
 • "
Is It Time to Consider Co-C.E.O.s? • " by Marc A. Feigen, Michael Jenkins, and Anton Warendh (
Harvard Business Review, • 2022).
 • "
The Costs and Benefits of Pair Programming • ," by Alistair Cockburn and Laurie Williams (2000).
 • "
Strengthening the Case for Pair Programming • ," by Laurie Williams, Robert R. Kessler, Ward Cunningham, and Ron Jeffries (
IEEE Software, • 2000).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Secret Life of a C.E.O. • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

 
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Are Two C.E.O.s Better Than One? (Update)

The U.S. has a physician shortage, created in part by a century-old reform that shut down bad medical schools. But why haven’t we filled the gap? Why are some physicians so unhappy? And which is worse: a bad doctor or no doctor at all?

 

SOURCES:Karen Clay • , professor of economics and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University.
Rochelle Walensky • , physician-scientist and former director of the CDC.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Medical School Closures, Market Adjustment, and Mortality in the Flexner Report Era • ," by Karen Clay, Grant Miller, Margarita Portnykh, and Ethan Schmick 
(National Bureau of Economic Research, • 2025).
 • "
Application Overload — A Call to Reduce the Burden of Applying to Medical School • ," by Rochelle Walensky and Loren Walensky 
(New England Journal of Medicine, • 2025).
 • "
Challenges to the Future of a Robust Physician Workforce in the United States • ," by Rochelle Walensky and Nicole McCann 
(New England Journal of Medicine, • 2025).
 • "
The first step to addressing the physician shortage • ," by Rochelle Walensky and Nicole McCann 
(STAT, • 2025).
 • "
Physician Workforce: Projections, 2022-2037 • ," 
(National Center for Health Workforce Analysis, • 2024).
 • “
Projected Estimates of African American Medical Graduates of Closed Historically Black Medical Schools • ,” by Kendall Campbell, Irma Corral, Jhojana Infante Linares, and Dmitry Tumin (
JAMA Network, • 2020).
 • "
Medical Education in the United States and Canada • ," by Abraham Flexner 
(The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, • 1910).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Is the Air Traffic Control System Broken? • " series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • "
Are You Ready for the Elder Swell? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • "
Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 
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650. The Doctor Won’t See You Now

For the 20th anniversary of Freakonomics, Debbie Millman of Design Matters interviews Stephen Dubner about his upbringing, his writing career, and why it's important to “swing your swing.” Plus: a sneak peek at a new project.

 

SOURCES:Debbie Millman • , writer and host of 
Design Matters with Debbie Millman.
 

RESOURCES: • "
Stephen J. Dubner • ," by 
Design Matters with Debbie Millman • (2025).
Turbulent Souls: A Catholic Son's Return To His Jewish Family • , by Stephen Dubner (1999).
 • "
Choosing My Religion • ," by Stephen Dubner 
(New York Times, • 1996).

 

EXTRAS: • "
In Search of the Real Adam Smith • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2022).

 
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A Question-Asker Becomes a Question-Answerer

Arthur Brooks, an economist and former head of the American Enterprise Institute, believes that there is only one remedy for our political polarization: love. In this 2021 episode, we ask if Brooks is a fool for thinking this — and if perhaps you are his kind of fool?

 

SOURCES:Arthur Brooks • , professor of public and nonprofit leadership at Harvard University.

 

RESOURCES: • “
Vital Statistics on Congress • ,” by Molly Reynolds and Naomi Maehr (
Brookings Institute, • 2024).
Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence, • by Anna Lembke (2021).
 • “
Reading Too Much Political News Is Bad for Your Well-Being • ,” by Arthur Brooks (
The Atlantic, • 2020).
Love Your Enemies: How Decent People Can Save America from the Culture of Contempt, • by Arthur Brooks (2019).
 • “
This 75-Year Harvard Study Found the 1 Secret to Leading a Fulfilling Life • ,” by Melanie Curtin (
Inc., • 2017).
The Conservative Heart: How to Build a Fairer, Happier, and More Prosperous America, • by Arthur Brooks (2015).
 • “
Grin and Bear It: The Influence of Manipulated Facial Expression on the Stress Response • ,” by Tara Kraft and Sarah Pressman (
Psychological Science, • 2012).

 

EXTRAS: • “
Why Is U.S. Media So Negative? • ” by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 
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How Can We Break Our Addiction to Contempt? (Update)

Soccer leagues around the world use a promotion-and-relegation system to reward the best teams and punish the worst. We ask whether American sports fans would enjoy a similar system. (Part two of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES:Domonique Foxworth • , sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
Stefan Szymanski • , professor of sport management at the University of Michigan.
Victor Matheson • , professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross.

 

RESOURCES: • "'
Root, root, root for the home team" did TV kill minor league baseball in the 1950s? • " by Stefan Szymanski 
(University of Michigan, • 2025).
 • "
European and North American Sports Differences (?): A Quarter Century on • ," by Stefan Szymanski 
(Principles and Paradoxes of Sports Economics, • 2024).
National Pastime: How Americans Play Baseball and the Rest of the World Plays Soccer, • by Stefan Szymanski and Andrew Zimbalist (2006).

 

EXTRAS: • "
When Is a Superstar Just Another Employee? (Update) • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • "
The Longest Long Shot • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2016).

 
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649. Should Ohio State (and Michigan, and Clemson) Join the N.F.L.?

The N.F.L. is a powerful cartel with imperial desires. College football is about to undergo a financial reckoning. So maybe they should team up? (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES:DeMaurice Smith • , former executive director of the National Football League Players Association.
Domonique Foxworth • , sports analyst and former N.F.L. player.
Jeffrey Kessler • , partner at the law firm of Winston & Strawn.
Oliver Luck • , sports executive and consultant.
Victor Matheson • , professor of economics at the College of the Holy Cross.

 

RESOURCES:Turf Wars: The Fight for the Soul of America's Game, • by DeMaurice Smith (2025).
 • "
Is there a Case for Subsidizing Sports Stadiums? • " by Victor Matheson (
Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
America’s Hidden Duopoly • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).
 • "
Should the U.S. Merge With Mexico? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2014).

 
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648. The Merger You Never Knew You Wanted

In this episode we first published in 2021, the political scientist Yuen Yuen Ang argues that different forms of government create different styles of corruption — and that the U.S. and China have more in common than we’d like to admit.

 

SOURCES:Yuen Yuen Ang • , professor of political science at Johns Hopkins University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
China’s Anti-Graft Show Is Educational, With Unintended Lessons • ," by Li Yuan (
The New York Times • , 2022).
China’s Gilded Age: The Paradox of Economic Boom and Vast Corruption • , by Yuen Yuen Ang (2020).
 • "
A Fair Assessment of China’s IP Protection • ," by Shang-Jin Wei and Xinding Yu (
Project Syndicate, • 2019).
The Bankers' New Clothes: What's Wrong with Banking and What to Do about It • , by Anat Admati (2013).
 • "
A Fistful of Dollars: Lobbying and the Financial Crisis • ," by Deniz Igan, Prachi Mishra, and Thierry Tressel (2011).

 

EXTRAS: • "
China Is Run by Engineers. America Is Run by Lawyers • ." by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
American Culture series • by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 
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Is the U.S. Really Less Corrupt Than China? (Update)

In his new book “Breakneck,” Dan Wang argues that the U.S. has a lot to learn from China. He also says that “no two peoples are more alike.” We have questions.

 

SOURCES:Dan Wang • , research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, author of 
Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future.
 

RESOURCES:Breakneck: China's Quest to Engineer the Future, • by Dan Wang (2025).
The Anaconda in the Chandelier: Writings on China, • by Perry Link (2025).
 • "
Is the U.S. Ready for the Next War? • " by Dexter Filkins 
(The New Yorker, • 2025).
 • "
How smartphones made Shenzhen China’s innovation capital • ," by Dan Wang (2016).
How China Escaped the Poverty Trap, • by Yuen Yuen Ang (2016).
The Art of Not Being Governed, • by Jame Scott (2009).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Engineering State and the Lawyerly Society: Dan Wang on his new book 'Breakneck • ,'" by the 
Sinica Podcast • (2025).
 • "
Is the U.S. Really Less Corrupt Than China? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).

 
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647. China Is Run by Engineers. America Is Run by Lawyers.

A lot of jobs in the modern economy don’t pay a living wage, and some of those jobs may be wiped out by new technologies. So what’s to be done? We revisit an episode from 2016 for a potential solution.

 

SOURCES:Erik Brynjolfsson • , professor of economics at Stanford University.
Evelyn Forget • , professor of economics and community health sciences at the University of Manitoba.
Sam Altman • , C.E.O. of OpenAI.
Robert Gordon • , professor emeritus of economics at Northwestern University.
Greger Larson • , professor of archeology at the University of Oxford.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Here's what a Sam Altman-backed basic income experiment found • ," by Megan Cerullo 
(CBS News, • 2024).
Utopia for Realists, • by Rutger Bregman. The Correspondent (2016).
The Second Machine Age, • by Erik Brynjolfsson and Andrew McAfee (2014).
 • "
The Town With No Poverty: Using Health Administration Data To Revisit Outcomes of a Canadian Guaranteed Annual Income Field Experiment • ," by Evelyn Forget (
Canadian Public Policy • , 2011).
 • "
The Negative Income Tax and the Evolution of U.S. Welfare Policy • ," by Robert Moffitt (
Journal of Economic Perspectives, • 2003).
Capitalism and Freedom • , by Milton Freidman (2002).
 • "
Lesson from the Income Maintenance Experiments • ," 
(Federal Reserve Bank of Boston and The Brookings Institution • , 1986).
Law, Legislation and Liberty, Volume 3: The Political Order of A Free People • , by Frederick Hayek (1981).
 • "
Daniel Moynihan and President-elect Nixon: How charity didn't begin at home • ," by Peter Passell and Leonard Ross (
New York Times • , 1973).
 • "
Income Maintenance Programs • ," (
Hearings Before The Subcommittee On Fiscal Policy Of The Joint Economic Committee Congress Of The United States • , 1968).

 

EXTRAS: • "
President Nixon Unveils the Family Assistance Program • ," (1969).
 • "
Milton Friedman interview with William F Buckley Jr • .,"
 • (1968).
 • "
Martin Luther King Jr. advocates for Guaranteed Income at Stanford • ,"
 • (1967).

 
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Is the World Ready for a Guaranteed Basic Income? (Update)

Austan Goolsbee, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, is less reserved than the average banker. He explains why vibes are overrated, why the Fed’s independence is non-negotiable, and why tariffs could bring the economy back to the Covid era.

 

SOURCES:Austan Goolsbee • , president and chief executive officer of the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Internet Rising, Prices Falling: Measuring Inflation in a World of E-Commerce • ," by Austan Goolsbee and Peter Klenow 
(American Economic Association Papers and Proceedings, • 2018).
Microeconomics, • by Austan Goolsbee, Steven Levitt, and Chad Syverson (2012).
 • "
Does the Internet Make Markets More Competitive? Evidence from the Life Insurance Industry • ," by Jeffrey Brown and Austan Goolsbee 
(Journal of Political Economy, • 2002).
Survey of Consumers • 
(University of Michigan).Adobe Digital Price Index • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Was Austan Goolsbee’s First Visit to the Oval Office Almost His Last? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • "
Is $2 Trillion the Right Medicine for a Sick Economy? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2020).
 • "
Fed Up, • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2019).
 • "
Why the Trump Tax Cuts Are Terrible/Awesome (Part 2) • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).
 • "
Ben Bernanke Gives Himself a Grade • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2015).
 • "
Should the U.S. Merge With Mexico? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2014).

 
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634. “Fault-Finder Is a Minimum-Wage Job”

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