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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt tracks down other high achievers for surprising, revealing conversations about their lives and obsessions. Join Levitt as he goes through the most interesting midlife crisis you’ve ever heard — and learn how a renegade sheriff is transforming Chicago's jail, how a biologist is finding the secrets of evolution in the Arctic tundra, and how a trivia champion memorized 160,000 flashcards.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

People I (Mostly) Admire

Michael Crow is the president of Arizona State University, which U.S. News & World Report has called the most innovative school in the country for 11 years running. He tells Steve about why higher education needs to change, and how A.S.U. is leading the way. Plus: Steve has an announcement about the podcast.

 

SOURCES:Michael Crow • , president of Arizona State University.

 

RESOURCES:The Fifth Wave: The Evolution of American Higher Education, • by Michael Crow (2020).
 • "
College Admissions Shocker! • ," by Frank Bruni 
(New York Times, • 2016).
New American University • .
Dreamscape Learn • .
University Innovation Alliance • .
FYI.AI • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Chemistry, Evolved • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2025).
 • "
America’s Math Curriculum Doesn’t Add Up • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
Data Science 4 Everyone • .

 
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172. A New Kind of University

Michael Greenstone knows it’s corny, but he wants to make the world a better place — by tracking the impact of air quality, developing pollution markets in India, and … starting a podcast, which Steve says proves he’s over the hill.

 

SOURCES:Michael Greenstone • , professor of economics at the University of Chicago.

 

RESOURCES: • "
New evidence on the impact of sustained exposure to air pollution on life expectancy from China's Huai River Policy • ," by Avraham Ebenstein, Maoyong Fan, Michael Greenstone, Guojun He, and Maigeng Zhou 
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, • 2017).
 • "
Evidence on the impact of sustained exposure to air pollution on life expectancy from China's Huai River policy • ," by Yuyu Chen, Avraham Ebenstein, Michael Greenstone, and Hongbin Li 
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, • 2013).
Shocked • , podcast.
Air Quality Life Index (AQLI) • .
Emissions Market Accelerator • .
Tropical Forest Forever Facility (TFFF) • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
This Is Your Brain on Pollution • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).
 • "
The Simple Economics of Saving the Amazon Rainforest • ", by 
People I (Mostly) Admire ( • 2020).

 
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171. Measuring Pollution on Parallel Earths

Suleika Jaouad was diagnosed with cancer at 22. She made her illness the subject of a New York Times column and a memoir, Between Two Kingdoms. She and Steve talk about what it means to live with a potentially fatal illness, how to talk to people who've gone through a tragedy, and ways to encourage medical donations.

 

SOURCES:Suleika Jaouad • , author.

 

RESOURCES:The Book of Alchemy: A Creative Practice for an Inspired Life, • by Suleika Jaouad (2025).
The Alchemy Journal, • by Suleika Jaouad (2025).
 • “
The Art of Survival • ,” by Jennifer Senior (
The Atlantic, • 2024).
American Symphony, • film by Matthew Heineman (2023).
Between Two Kingdoms: A Memoir of a Life Interrupted, • by Suleika Jaouad (2021).
 • “
Max Ritvo, Poet Who Chronicled His Cancer Fight, Dies at 25 • ,” by John Schwartz (
The New York Times, • 2016).
 • “
Life, Interrupted • ,” column by Suleika Jaouad (
The New York Times, • 2012-2015).
The Fault in Our Stars, • by John Green (2012).
Bright-sided: How Positive Thinking Is Undermining America, • by Barbara Ehrenreich (2009).
The Isolation Journals, • newsletter by Suleika Jaouad.

 

EXTRAS: • “
John Green’s Reluctant Rocket Ship Ride • ,” by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • “
Does Death Have to Be a Death Sentence? • ” by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).

 
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Suleika Jaouad’s Survival Mechanisms (Replay)

Physicist and former pop star Brian Cox tells Steve about discovering the Higgs boson, having a number-one hit, and why particle physics research will almost certainly not create a black hole that destroys all life on earth.

 

SOURCES:Brian Cox • , physicist at the University of Manchester.

 

RESOURCES:Black Holes: The Key to Understanding the Universe, • by Brian Cox and Jeff Forshaw (2023).
 • "
Higgs10: The Higgs boson and the rise of the Standard Model of Particle Physics in the 1970s • ," by John Ellis 
(CERN, • 2022).
Out of Silence, • by Dare (2004).
 • "
WW scattering at the LHC • ," by J. M. Butterworth, Brian Cox, and J. R. Forshaw 
(CERN, • 2002).
A Brief History of Time, • by Stephen Hawking (1998).
 • "
Gravitational Collapse and Space-Time Singularities • ," by Roger Penrose 
(Physical Review Letters, • 1965).
 • "
The Value of Science • ," by Richard P. Feynman 
(Internet Archive, • 1955).
 • "
Brian Cox Live • ."

 
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170. Finding the God Particle

Irving Finkel is an expert on cuneiform — the oldest known writing system. He tells Steve the amazing story of how an ancient clay tablet unlocked the truth about Noah’s ark (and got Finkel in trouble with some Christians).

 

SOURCES:Irving Finkel • , curator in the department of the Middle East at the British Museum.

 

RESOURCES: • "
How to write cuneiform • ," by Irving Finkel 
(The British Museum, • 2021).
 • "
PBS Nova: Secrets of Noah's Ark • ," (2015).
The Ark Before Noah: Decoding the Story of the Flood, • by Irving Finkel (2014).
 • "
Epic Hero • ," by David Damrosch 
(Smithsonian Magazine, • 2007).
 • "
How Egyptian hieroglyphs were decoded, a timeline to decipherment • ," 
(The British Museum).
 

EXTRAS: • "
Jane Goodall, Who Chronicled the Social Lives of Chimps, Dies at 91 • ," by Keith Schneider 
(New York Times, • 2025).
 • "
Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done • ." by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • "
D:Ream - Things Can Only Get Better • ," (1993).

 
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169. Decoding the World’s First Writing

Moon Duchin is a math professor at the University of Chicago whose theoretical work has practical applications for voting and democracy. Why is striving for fair elections so difficult?

 

SOURCES:Moon Duchin • , professor of mathematics at Cornell University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Gerrymandering: The Origin Story • ," by Neely Tucker (
Timeless: Stories from the Library of Congress, • 2024).
 • "
Redistricting for Proportionality • ," by Gabe Schoenbach and Moon Duchin (
The Forum, • 2023).
 • "
The Atlas Of Redistricting • ," by Aaron Bycoffe, Ella Koeze, David Wasserman, and Julia Wolfe (
FiveThirtyEight, • 2018).
 • "
In a Comically Drawn Pennsylvania District, the Voters Are Not Amused • ," by Trip Gabriel (
The New York Times, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
State of Texas to begin calling witnesses in federal hearing over Trump-backed congressional map • ," by Blaise Gainey 
(KUT News, • 2025).
 • "
Utah's Redistricting Battle Explained • ," 
(PBS Utah, • 2025).
 • "
Is This the Future of High School? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).

 
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Is There a Fair Way to Divide Us? (Update)

Frances Arnold pioneered the process of directed evolution — mimicking natural selection to create new enzymes that have changed everything from agriculture to laundry.

 

SOURCES:Frances Arnold • , professor of chemistry at the California Institute of Technology. 

 

RESOURCES: • "
Innovation by Evolution: Bringing New Chemistry to Life • ," by Frances Arnold (Nobel Lecture, 2018).
 • "
Bacteria taught to bond carbon and silicon for the first time • ," by Aviva Rutkin (
New Scientist • , 2016).
 • "
Directed evolution of cytochrome c for carbon–silicon bond formation: Bringing silicon to life • ," by S. B. Jennifer Kan, Russell D. Lewis, Kai Chen, and Frances H. Arnold (
Science • , 2016).
 • "
The Director of Evolution • ," by Jennifer Ouellette (
Slate • , 2013).
 • "
Engineered ketol-acid reductoisomerase and alcohol dehydrogenase enable anaerobic 2-methylpropan-1-ol production at theoretical yield in Escherichia coli • ," by Sabine Bastian, Xiang Liu, Joseph T. Meyerowitz, Christopher D. Snow, Mike M. Y. Chen, and Frances H. Arnold (
Metabolic Engineering • , 2011).
Gevo • .
Provivi • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
How to Help Kids Succeed • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2025).
The Levitt Lab • .

 
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168. Chemistry, Evolved

Steven Pinker’s new book argues that all our relationships depend on shared assumptions and “recursive mentalizing” — our constant efforts to understand what other people are thinking. He and Steve talk about the psychology of eye contact, the particular value of Super Bowl ads, and what it’s like to get cancelled.

 

SOURCES:Steven Pinker • , professor of psychology at Harvard University.

 

RESOURCES:When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows, • by Steven Pinker (2025).
 • "
Why I Left Harvard • ," by Carole Hooven 
(The Free Press, • 2024).
Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters • , by Steven Pinker (2021).
 • "
Economics of Toilet Paper X Thread • ," by Justin Wolfers (2020).
 • "
How a Famous Harvard Professor Became a Target Over His Tweets • ," by Michael Powell 
(New York Times, • 2020).
 • "
Police Killings of Blacks: Here Is What the Data Say • ," by Sendhil Mullainathan (2015).
SuperFreakonomics: Global Cooling, Patriotic Prostitutes, and Why Suicide Bombers Should Buy Life Insurance, • by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner (2011).
Rational Ritual: Culture, Coordination, and Common Knowledge, • by Michael Suk-Young Chwe (2003).
 • "
Open Letter to the LSA • ."

 

EXTRAS: • "
Steven Pinker: 'I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2020).

 
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167. The Secret of Humanity? It’s Common Knowledge.

The Power of Habit author Charles Duhigg wrote his new book in an attempt to learn how to communicate better. Steve shares how the book helped him understand his own conversational weaknesses.

 

SOURCES:Charles Duhigg • , journalist and author.

 

RESOURCES:Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, • by Charles Duhigg (2024).
 • "
2023 Word of the Year Is 'Enshittification • ,'" by the American Dialect Association (2024).
 • "
When Someone You Love Is Upset, Ask This One Question • ," by Jancee Dunn (
The New York Times, • 2023).
Smarter Faster Better: The Secrets of Being Productive in Life and Business, • by Charles Duhigg (2016).
 • "
The 36 Questions That Lead to Love • ," by Daniel Jones (
The New York Times, • 2015).
The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, • by Charles Duhigg (2012).
 • "
The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness: A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings • ," by Arthur Aron, Edward Melinat, Elaine N. Aron, Robert Darrin Vallone, and Renee J. Bator (
Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, • 1997).

 

EXTRAS: • "
How Can You Get Closer to the People You Care About? • " by 
No Stupid Questions • (2023).
 • "
How Do You Connect With Someone You Just Met? • " by 
No Stupid Questions • (2023).
 • "
Can I Ask You a Ridiculously Personal Question? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).
 • "
Amanda & Lily Levitt Share What It’s Like to be Steve’s Daughters • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Marina Nitze: 'If You Googled ‘Business Efficiency Consultant,’ I Was the Only Result • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
How to Be More Productive • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2016).
Frozen, • film (2013).

 
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How to Have Great Conversations (Update)

Seth Berkley used to run the world's largest vaccine funding organization. He and Steve talk about the incredible value of vaccines, the economics of immunizing the developing world, and the current attacks on public health.

 

SOURCES:Seth Berkley • , epidemiologist at Brown University School of Public Health.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Trump Administration Ends Program Critical to Search for an H.I.V. Vaccine • ," by Apoorva Mandavilli 
(New York Times, • 2025).
Fair Doses: An Insider's Story of the Pandemic and the Global Fight for Vaccine Equity, • by Seth Berkley (2025).
 • "
How a partnership saved millions of children’s lives with vaccines • ," 
(Gates Foundation).Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Moncef Slaoui: 'It’s Unfortunate That It Takes a Crisis for This to Happen • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2020).

 
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166. The World’s Most Effective Public Health Intervention Is Under Attack

He has been a lawyer, an instructor at the F.B.I. Academy, the owner of a frozen-yogurt chain, and a winner of the TV show Survivor. Today, Kwon works at Google, where he helped build tools to track the spread of COVID-19. But things haven’t always come easily for him. Steve Levitt talks to Kwon about his debilitating childhood anxieties, his compulsion to choose the hardest path in life, and how Kwon used his obsession with game theory to stage a come-from-behind victory on Survivor.

 
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13. Yul Kwon: “Don't Try to Change Yourself All at Once.”

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