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Nate Hagens

The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens explores money, energy, economy, and the environment with world experts and leaders to understand how everything fits together, and where we go from here.

The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens

Mainstream conversations about artificial intelligence tend to center around the technology's economic and large-scale impacts. Yet it's at the individual level where we're seeing AI's most potent effects, and they may not be what you think. Even in the limited time that AI chatbots have been publicly available (like Claude, ChatGPT, Perplexity, etc.), studies show that our increasing reliance on them wears down our ability to think and communicate effectively, and even erodes our capacity to nurture healthy attachments to others. In essence, AI is atrophying the skills that sit at the core of what it means to be human. Can we as a society pause to consider the risks this technology poses to our well-being, or will we keep barreling forward with its development until it's too late?
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Nora Bateson and Zak Stein to explore the multifaceted ways that AI is designed to exploit our deepest social vulnerabilities, and the risks this poses to human relationships, cognition, and society. They emphasize the need for careful consideration of how technology shapes our lives and what it means for the future of human connection. Ultimately, they advocate for a deeper engagement with the embodied aspects of living alongside other people and nature as a way to counteract our increasingly digital world.
 
What can we learn from past mass adaptation of technologies such as the invention of the world wide web or GPS when it comes to AI's increasing presence in our lives? How does artificial intelligence expose and intensify the ways our culture is already eroding our mental health and capacity for human connection? And lastly, how might we imagine futures where technology magnifies the best sides of humanity – like creativity, cooperation, and care – rather than accelerating our most destructive instincts? 
 
(Conversation recorded on October 14th, 2025)

 
 
 
About Nora Bateson:
 
Nora Bateson is an award-winning filmmaker, writer and educator, as well as President of the International Bateson Institute, based in Sweden. Her work asks the question "How can we improve our perception of the complexity we live within, so we may improve our interaction with the world?"
 
An international lecturer, researcher and writer, Nora wrote, directed and produced the award-winning documentary, An Ecology of Mind, a portrait of her father, Gregory Bateson. Her work brings the fields of biology, cognition, art, anthropology, psychology, and information technology together into a study of the patterns in ecology of living systems. Her book, Small Arcs of Larger Circles, released by Triarchy Press, UK, 2016 is a revolutionary personal approach to the study of systems and complexity.
 
 
 
About Zak Stein:
 
Dr. Zak Stein is a philosopher of education, as well as a Co-founder of the Center for World Philosophy and Religion. He is also the Co-founder of Civilization Research Institute, the Consilience Project, and Lectica, Inc. He is the author of dozens of published papers and two books, including Education in a Time Between Worlds. Zak received his EdD from Harvard University. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
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Hacking Human Attachment: The Loneliness Crisis, Cognitive Atrophy and other Personal Dangers of AI | RR 20

In this week's Frankly, Nate outlines four bifurcations that are likely to underpin the human experience in the near future. While the broad biophysical realities of energy and ecology underpin our civilization's movement over time, in the moment, people will experience these trends mostly economically and psychologically. Whether related to the widening of an already existing economic gap or the expansion of dependence on cognitive crutches like AI, the demographics that comprise society are starting to splinter – to bifurcate. These divergences, and the ways we cope with them, contribute to increasing incoherence as a species.
 
What are the areas we might witness societal bifurcation? Why should we strive to meet others in the context of their lived experiences, even when they diverge radically from our own? How might progress itself start to be redefined?
 
(Recorded October 28th, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 

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The Quadruple Bifurcation | Frankly 112

Many of us wrestle with the unsettling truth that everyone – including ourselves and those we love – will one day die. Though this awareness is uncomfortable, research suggests that the human capacity to contemplate death is a byproduct of consciousness itself. In fact, our efforts to cope with mortality are at the core of culture, religion, the desire for wealth, and even many of today's societal crises. How might a deeper understanding of our implicit reactions to mortality help us turn towards responses that are more supportive of our species and planet? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Sheldon Solomon, a psychologist and co-developer of Terror Management Theory, which posits that while all living beings strive to survive, humans are unique in knowing that death is unavoidable. Solomon explores some of our instinctual coping mechanisms, including clinging to existing cultural worldviews and activities that bolster our self-esteem, even when they may have negative consequences for those around us. He also explains how these defensive mechanisms manifest in modern society, influencing politics, consumerism, and religious beliefs. 
 
Why does our fear of death drive materialism and the endless hunger for "more"? How do reminders of death impact our attitudes toward people with different political or religious beliefs? And lastly, could practices rooted in mindfulness, gratitude, and awe help us to more skillfully relate to death anxiety by strengthening our relationships, giving to our community, and reveling in the expansive magnificence of the universe in which we get to inhabit? 
 
(Conversation recorded on September 25th, 2025)
 
 
 
About Sheldon Solomon:
 
Sheldon Solomon is Professor of Psychology at Skidmore College. His research on the behavioral effects of the unique human awareness of death have been supported by the National Science Foundation and the Ernest Becker Foundation, and were featured in the award winning documentary film Flight from Death: The Quest for Immortality. 
 
Sheldon is the co-author of the book In the Wake of 9/11: The Psychology of Terror and The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. Additionally, he is an American Psychological Society Fellow, as well as a recipient of an American Psychological Association Presidential Citation (2007) and a Lifetime Career Award by the International Society for Self and Identity (2009).
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Terror Management Theory: How Existential Dread Has Shaped the World with Sheldon Solomon

In this week's Frankly, Nate considers the ways in which our social species overvalues false-confidence rather than the more honest and inquisitive response of "I don't know." He invites us to consider the science behind this cultural bias towards certainty: from our biological response from the stress of "not knowing" to the reinforcing effects of motivated reasoning that ensnares even the smartest among us (especially the smartest among us).
 
Overconfidence and the desire for quick answers have been the root cause of many of humanity's disasters, from the space shuttle Challenger explosion to the Deep Water Horizon oil spill to the subprime housing bubble. And now, the exponential growth and integration of Artificial Intelligence is hyper-fueling this risk, as AI mirrors the human aversion to uncertainty through "hallucinations". As some AI companies are now considering penalizing over-confident answers in favor of "I don't know", perhaps humans could learn to do the same for ourselves.
 
How often do you say. "I don't know"? In what ways do we lose opportunities for conversation and exploration by not admitting our own uncertainties? Can listening to our own gut for "truth" and embracing intentional Red Team dissent shift "I don't know" from weakness to wisdom?
 
(Recorded October 17th, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 

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The Three Most Important Words We're Taught Not to Say

Monopolistic business practices have been illegal in the United States for more than a century. Yet, monopoly power continues to accelerate in our modern commercial landscape. Large, powerful corporations edge out smaller businesses, often citing scale, "efficiency", and lower costs as their reasons for success. But looking more closely reveals a reality that is far different. Small businesses are more cost-effective and deliver better results to the people they serve than giant corporations. Furthermore, they form the backbone of engaged and connected communities. So what is actually preventing small businesses (and communities) from flourishing, and what can individuals do today to build economic power in their communities? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by economic writer and strategist, Stacy Mitchell, to explore how concentrated economic power shapes the health of towns and cities – from economic resilience to social connectedness. They unpack why big businesses actually deliver poorer, pricier results and more vulnerable supply chains, yet are able squeeze smaller businesses out of the market. Stacy also sheds light on the United States' long history of breaking up monopolies through antitrust laws, and the policy developments in recent decades that have prevented their enforcement. 
 
How do small businesses play an integral role in fostering resilient social capital? Why have we seen an increase in economic consolidation and inequality in the last several decades, and how can we reverse it? Finally, what practical steps can each of us take in our own communities to advance more localized economic systems that better serve people and the planet?
 
(Conversation recorded on September 18th, 2025) 
 
 
 
 
About Stacy Mitchell:
 
Stacy Mitchell is a writer, strategist, and policy advocate. She is Co-Executive Director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, an organization that for five decades has challenged the wisdom of neoliberalism and championed local, community-oriented models. She also serves on the board of the Maine Center for Economic Policy. 
 
Additionally, Stacy is the author of Big-Box Swindle: The True Cost of Mega-Retailers and the Fight for America's Independent Businesses. In 2016, she co-authored Amazon's Stranglehold, an influential report that took a critical eye to the e-commerce giant. Congress cited her research on Amazon's monopolization strategy in its investigation of Big Tech's dominance in 2021 and her work informed the Federal Trade Commission's antitrust lawsuit against the company in 2023. She has also worked extensively at the local level, helping communities craft policies that support local entrepreneurship and vibrant commercial districts. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Challenging Monopoly Power: Why Local Business is Better for People, the Planet, and Your Wallet with Stacy Mitchell

In this week's Frankly, Nate reflects on the multiple metaphors brought to mind via a single photograph, which depicts a sloth climbing a barbed wire fence in Costa Rica. Beyond evoking compassion for a species that's on the receiving end of human intervention into its ecosystem, the image raises larger ideas about the response of animals, including humans, to artificial cues and novel environments. Just as the sloth mistakes a fence post for the safety of a tree, modern humans mistake consumption, speed, and certainty for meaning.
 
Moving beyond just the image, Nate unpacks the word "sloth" itself as one of the original seven deadly sins, offering a reimagining of what today's seven moral failings might be in the context of a global economic superorganism. Apathy, righteousness, and anthropocentrism might be today's major vices, which each have consequences for the environment and our relationship to it.
 
Can we stand our ground locally against the global superorganism? How can we begin to reclaim agency and compassion – both for ourselves and the ecosystems we are inextricably a part of? Do our instincts no longer serve us in a world so rapidly and radically changed?
 
(Recorded October 13th, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More

 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 

 
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What Sloths Teach Us About the Superorganism

Twenty-five years ago, a landmark paper warned that the world's coral reefs could vanish by 2050. Now, halfway to that projected date (and amid ever more frequent coral bleaching events), that grim prediction feels increasingly close to reality. What is the current state of Earth's coral reefs, and what would happen to our planetary home without them? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Ove Hoegh-Guldberg, the marine biologist who made this landmark prediction, for an update on the health of coral reefs and the primary ecological stressors driving their decline. Drawing on decades of research, he explains the mechanisms of coral bleaching, the critical biodiversity hotspots that reefs create, and the implications for human populations that depend on these ecosystems. Ove also touches on the emotional impact of witnessing the loss of reefs for the scientists who have dedicated their lives to studying them.
 
How are human actions increasingly putting pressure on the very ecosystems that support more than one billion people? What would happen to the broader health of the oceans if reefs were to disappear entirely? And most of all, what changes can both individuals and institutions make today to support the health of these vital ecosystems – and in-turn, the well-being of the entire Earth?
 
(Conversation recorded on August 6th, 2025) 

 
 
 
About Ove Hoegh-Guldberg:
 
Ove Hoegh-Guldberg is Professor of Marine Studies at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, as well as the Deputy Director of the Centre for Excellence in Coral Reef Studies. Over the past 10 years, he was also the Founding Director of the Global Change Institute. In addition to this work, Ove conceived and led the scientific XL-Catlin Seaview Survey which has surveyed over 1000 km of coral reefs across 25 countries and captured and analysed over 1 million survey images of coral reefs. 
 
Ove's research focuses on the impacts of global change on marine ecosystems, and he is one of the most cited authors on climate change. He has also been a dedicated communicator of the threat posed by ocean warming and acidification to marine ecosystems, being one of the first scientists to identify the serious threat posed by climate change for coral reefs in a landmark paper published in 1999, which predicted the loss of coral reefs by 2050. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Will Coral Reefs Be Gone by 2050? How Bleaching, Acidification, and Ocean Heating are Killing Coral Reefs with Ove Hoegh-Guldberg

For many people in the modern world, electricity powers everything we do. Yet we take for granted how power flows in the background, seemingly always accessible to us just by flipping a switch. In fact, most of us are completely unaware of what it takes to generate and transmit the power we so deeply rely on, let alone the policy decisions shaping our electrical grids – or how they might affect reliable access to power. How do today's electrical grids actually work, and do they align with our long-term goals for human and planetary well-being?
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Meredith Angwin for an in-depth overview of the U.S. electrical grid system, its history, and the need for accountability in energy governance. Meredith discusses the infrastructure of the grid, the complexities of grid management, and the implications of shifting to market-based systems. Additionally, she emphasizes the critical importance of resource adequacy and reliability – and the barriers to that in our current policy landscape. 
 
How has the increased use of renewables and natural gas affected the broader dynamics of the grid? If the electrical grid were to fail, who is responsible for the problem, and who should fix it? Ultimately, what variables do we need to consider as we attempt to provide dependable electricity for everyone without jeopardizing the stability of the Earth? 
 
 
 
About Meredith Angwin:
 
Meredith Angwin studies and takes part in grid over-sight and governance. For four years, she served on the Coordinating Committee for the Consumer Liaison Group associated with ISO-NE, her local grid operator. She also teaches courses and workshops on the electric grid, and wrote a book titled, Shorting the Grid: The Hidden Fragility of our Electric Grid, analyzing the electrical grid from a physical science and policy perspective.
 
As a working chemist, Meredith Angwin headed projects that lowered pollution and increased reliability on the electric grid. Her work included pollution control for nitrogen oxides in gas-fired combustion turbines, and corrosion control in geothermal and nuclear systems. Further, she is an inventor on several patents and was one of the first women to be a project manager at the Electric Power Research Institute where she led projects in renewable and nuclear energy.
 
(Conversation recorded on September 17th, 2025) 
 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Is the U.S. Electric Grid Stable? Policy, Renewables, and Who Is Responsible If The Grid Fails with Meredith Angwin

To view the graphs Nate is referring to in this episode, please click here.
 
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In this week's Frankly, Nate returns from New York City Climate Week with fresh reflections on the disconnect between our economic narratives and biophysical realities. Using his background in finance, Nate observes that while the prioritization of financial abstractions and claims continue to accelerate, with gold and silver prices reaching record-setting highs, the ledger is being balanced with parallel declines in our planetary health and social resilience. This tradeoff is harder and harder to ignore as newly crossed planetary boundaries continue alerting us to the fact that we are operating outside of our Earth's ability to maintain biospheric stability.
 
Nate also gives an update on Peak Oil, drawing on the International Energy Agency's recent report regarding the implications of oil and gas field decline rates. He emphasizes that the question at hand is not if these energetic supply constraints will affect the trajectory of human systems – rather, the question is when it will come into effect, and how we will respond as a human species.
 
Given the increasing number of reports on declining oil forecasts, how much longer can our society remain energy-blind? Where might our priorities shift if we truly understood the biophysical limits shaping our future? Lastly, if we were to zoom out towards a wider boundary lens, what types of societal responses become possible that could steer us towards better human and planetary futures? 
 
(Recorded September 30, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Peak Oil, Ponzi Pyramids, and Planetary Boundaries

The overarching definition of success today often looks like the accumulation of stuff – money, cars, property, clothing – anything that signals wealth. This means that success is also synonymous with overshoot, extraction, and consumption – none of which lead to healthy outcomes for the planet or the global good. But what might be possible if we were to redefine success to prioritize collective well-being instead of personal gain?
 
In today's episode, Nate sits down with Dutch historian and author Rutger Bregman to discuss the concept of moral ambition, which he defines as the desire to be one of the best, measured by different standards of success: not by big payouts or fancy honorifics, but by the ability to tackle the world's biggest problems. Bregman highlights the importance of entrepreneurs in driving social change and the necessity of cultural shifts to foster a more altruistic society, as well as the challenges faced in pursuing these ideals.
 
What possibilities might arise if we combined the idealism of an activist with the ambition of an entrepreneur? How can we apply the principles of entrepreneurship to better address global challenges? And how could a radical redefinition of success motivate the world's top talent to make major contributions to our most pressing issues, leaving a legacy that actually makes a difference?
 
(Conversation recorded on July 8th, 2025)
 
 
 
About Rutger Bregman:
 
Rutger Bregman is a Dutch historian and author. Initially considering a career as an academic historian, Rutger instead ventured into journalism. He began his career at the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant before moving to the independent journalism platform De Correspondent, for which he wrote for ten years. His books Humankind: A Hopeful History (2020) and Utopia for Realists: And How We Can Get There (2017) were both Sunday Times and New York Times bestsellers and have been translated into 46 languages.
 
In 2024, Rutger co-founded The School for Moral Ambition, a non-profit organization inspired by his latest book, Moral Ambition: Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference. The initiative helps people to take the step toward an impactful career.
 

 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
 
Join our Substack newsletter
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Moral Ambition: Redefining Success for the Global Good with Rutger Bregman

Description
 
This week, Nate walks through the path we are currently on en route to the Great Simplification - a path towards a "Mordor Economy". Based on data from colleagues Art Berman and Carey King, Nate untangles the complex relationship between biology, GDP, and net energy. How is an economic metabolism based on a need for growth creating a pathway for increasing amounts of energy to be directed to the energy sector itself? Why hasn't the rapid growth of renewables satiated our energy appetite? How is the use of credit masking the full energetic-cost of energy? Can we proactively take the necessary steps to reset the balance between energy efficiency and energy consumption to pass through Mordor unscathed and arrive at the Great Simplification?
 
To Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/HoYg9M8brF4
 
For Show Notes and More: https://www.thegreatsimplification.com/frankly-original/23-mordor-economy

The Mordor Economy | Frankly #23

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