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The Verge

Decoder is a show from The Verge about big ideas — and other problems. Verge editor-in-chief Nilay Patel talks to a diverse cast of innovators and policymakers at the frontiers of business and technology to reveal how they’re navigating an ever-changing landscape, what keeps them up at night, and what it all means for our shared future.

Decoder with Nilay Patel

Evan Smith, cofounder and CEO of Altana, was last on the show in early 2025 to talk about how Trump’s first few waves of tariffs were starting to affect global trade. It was a very alarming and also very illuminating chat; Evan and I got into the existential weeds of international relations and economics almost immediately.

A year and a half later, and everything is somehow even more chaotic than it was the last time Evan and I talked — and that’s true about both trade and also the world of running a software company. Agentic AI, whack-a-mole tariff policy, war in Iran — we jumped right back into weeds yet again.

Links: 

 How Trump’s tariff chaos is already changing global trade | Decoder

 Skydio CEO Adam Bry on not drawing red lines for drone use | Decoder

 Trump imposes new global tariffs, drawing protests from trading partners | Reuters

 Greer: USMCA Talks Could Stretch Into Next Year | Wall Street Journal

 Trump hits Canada with new 50% tariffs | Associated Press

 Iran weaponized the Strait of Hormuz. Now neighbors are going around it | CNN

 The Iran war is testing Southeast Asia’s faith in the US | Politico

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tariffs didn’t bring manufacturing jobs back to the US

Today, I’m talking with Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, about the major trade secrets lawsuit between Apple and OpenAI, and what this tells us about OpenAI’s future. 

Hayden has been covering OpenAI for years now, and she also just talked to a bunch of lawyers who specialize in intellectual property and trade secret law to get a sense of how serious this case is. The answer is not entirely positive for OpenAI. This legal battle could also affect OpenAI’s hardware plans, its forthcoming IPO, and its already-damaged reputation. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Sam Altman didn’t need another lawsuit | The Verge

 OpenAI’s first device will be moveable, screenless speaker | Bloomberg

 Apple sues OpenAI for allegedly stealing hardware secrets | The Verge

 The 6 wildest claims in Apple’s lawsuit against OpenAI | The Verge

 OpenAI is buying Jony Ive’s AI hardware company | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What Apple’s OpenAI lawsuit is really about

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show.

You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial.

These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 The Artificial State | The New Yorker 

 ‘Terminator’ to tech titans: Jill Lepore on the ‘artificial state’ | Yale Univ.

 The failed ideas that drive Elon Musk | New York Times

 Sam Altman | The Joe Rogan Experience

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dr. Jill Lepore on why the AI backlash is vital for the future

We’ve got the first of a two-part series on the systems that run the world: I’m talking today with Bart Butler, the CTO of Proton, the company that makes private and secure productivity software. 

There’s a lot of big Decoder themes in this one. That includes how Proton has structured its ownership and architected its products to align its incentives with protecting users. At the same time, Proton faces new challenges and pressures, both at home in Switzerland and from the EU and US government that are putting its values to the test. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Proton now offers an entire bundle of office services | The Verge

 Proton Mail helped FBI unmask anonymous ‘Stop Cop City’ protester | 404Media

 Proton says it will leave Switzerland if this controversial law Is passed | Vice

 Age verification is a mess but we’re doing it anyway | The Verge

 Let’s build a children’s public internet | The Verge

 Let me see some ID: age verification is spreading across the internet | The Verge

 Why Chat Control 1.0 is the EU's most Orwellian law yet | Euronews

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Proton’s CTO: No company is going to jail for you

Nvidia is obviously in the news constantly because of the AI boom — but it's also a major supplier to the entire auto industry As head of Nvidia's automotive division, Xinzhou Wu has a front-row seat to all the challenges EVs and autonomous vehicles are facing, especially in the US.

And of course, you can’t talk about electric cars or vehicle autonomy in the US without talking about Elon Musk and Tesla. So I asked Xinzhou pretty directly if Tesla full self driving can actually do what Elon claims it will be able to do without using LiDAR. You tell me if you think his answer holds up.

Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. 

Links: 

 Nvidia’s head of autonomous driving opens up about his plans | The Verge

 Hyundai, Nissan, BYD, and Geely Join Nvidia’s Level 4 | MotorTrend

 Nvidia, auto suppliers roll out partnerships to rekindle self-driving | Reuters

 Meet Alpamayo, Nvidia’s new AI model for autonomous cars | Forbes

 I tested Nvidia’s FSD competitor — Tesla should be worried | The Verge

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yes, even Nvidia's head of automotive is fighting for compute

My guest today is Peter Kafka, chief correspondent at Business Insider and host of Channels, a podcast about the media industry. And it’s a big week for the media industry — Comcast just announced that it’s splitting itself up, into the Comcast broadband company and the NBCUniversal entertainment company.

This dream, that you can combine distribution with big splashy entertainment properties, has failed time and again. But Comcast tried the content plus pipes strategy for longer than most. So Peter and I discussed what happened in the media and broadband industries over the last 15 years, and what might happen next. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Comcast is cutting NBCUniversal loose | Business Insider

 Comcast’s split could make or break Peacock | The Verge

 Comcast and NBCUniversal will go it alone. But for how long? | NYT

 Comcast split shows bigger is no longer better | Deadline

 A cable scion’s hardest deal yet: breaking up his family’s company | WSJ

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Why did Comcast ever buy NBC?

Today I’m talking with Ali Berman and Raina Penchansky, who run the Creators Division at United Talent Agency. UTA is an enormous talent agency, and Ali and Raina's creators division represents some of the biggest creators and influencers in the world.

So I really wanted to know how Raina and Ali identify up-and-coming talent, how they work with that talent to build durable businesses, and what the machinations of being a top creator actually look like in practice.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 The power brokers behind the $250B influencer economy | Wall Street Journal

 The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok)

 UTA Unveils Upscale Office for Creators | The Hollywood Reporter

 YouTube Stars Breach Hollywood’s Most Gilded Gate | New York Times

 CAA, TPG form holding company to acquire creator-led businesses | Variety

 How creator talent agencies are evolving into multi-platform operators | Digiday

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt; this episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Inside the big business of the creator economy, with Ali Berman and Raina Penchansky

We’ve got a special Decoder today. I had the chance to talk with Amy Lanzi, the CEO of Digitas North America, in front of a live audience at the Uber villa at the Cannes Lions advertising festival in the south of France.

There’s a lot in this one on AI, the creator economy, and the future of marketing – like I said, Amy is as sharp as they come, and I really enjoy talking to her about how the money really works.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 

 The Influencer Cliff | Carmen Vicente (TikTok)

 The Wrong Promises | Publicis Groupe (YouTube)

 You can just tell the Instagram algorithm what you want now | The Verge

 How brands and creators are fighting for your attention and money | Decoder (2025)

 How influencers are changing advertising, with Digitas’ Amy Lanzi | Decoder (2024)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The CMO is a dying role, says Digitas' Amy Lanzi

It’s time for our annual Fourth of July grill episode here at Decoder, which is when we invite the CEOs of outdoor cooking companies onto the show to explain just how their businesses kind of look like every other business. And this is a very special edition. 

Today we’re talking to Roger Dahle, the CEO of Weber Blackstone, a full circle moment for Decoder. Roger was our first-ever grill CEO on the show back when he was the CEO of just Blackstone. Five years later, Roger now runs one of his biggest competitors, after Blackstone announced a merger with Weber in 2024. So we talked about that process, and how Roger is managing the integration of these two grilling giants. 

Links: 

 ﻿Weber and Blackstone to combine | The Verge

 How Blackstone became the darling of grill TikTok | Decoder (2021)

 How arson led to a culture reboot at Traeger, with CEO Jeremy Andrus | Decoder (2022)

 Big Green Egg CEO Dan Gertsacov on growing kamado cooking | Decoder (2024)

 How SharkNinja took over the home | Decoder (2025)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He changed outdoor cooking forever — then took over Weber

Hey everyone, Nilay here. You might remember I took a break from Decoder last year — we had a baby, so I took some leave. In my place, we had an excellent slate of guest hosts, and we’ve been working hard to bring you those episodes in full video since we launched our official Decoder YouTube channel.

So today, we’re featuring a really great interview conducted by my very good friend Joanna Stern, now the founder and CEO of New Things, and Ford CEO Jim Farley. Joanna pulled some exclusive news out of Jim at the time, including some telling quotes on Trump’s tariff policy, on Ford competing with Chinese EVs, and the company's stance on Apple CarPlay. 

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. 

Links: 

 Ford CEO Jim Farley on China, tariffs, and the quest for a $30,000 EV | Decoder

 Joanna Stern is not a robot, but she lived with them | Decoder

 Ford's Jim Farley: 'I totally would’ve done it differently.’ | The Verge

 Ford pulls the plug on the all-electric F-150 Lightning pickup truck | NPR

 Inside the lab where Ford is trying to crack the code on cheap EVs | The Verge

 Ford is fighting against physics to build affordable EVs | The Verge

 Ford reveals breakthrough process for lower priced EVs | The Verge

 Ford CEO Jim Farley on building the electric F-150 | Decoder (2021)

Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder!

Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

The show is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. The video version of this episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. 

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Rewind: CEO Jim Farley on Ford's EV gamble

Joe Tsai, the executive vice chairman of Chinese commerce giant Alibaba, talks with Recode’s Jason Del Rey at the 2018 Code Conference. He says that Alibaba has not tried to do a big acquisition deal in the U.S., but is definitely looking to create strategic partnerships. Specifically, Tsai wants to encourage American companies to tap into the Chinese market, where there are hundreds of millions of internet consumers as potential customers. He also disputes some criticism lobbed by fellow Code Conference speaker Sen. Mark Warner, who had alleged that Chinese tech firms were too cozy with the country's communist government.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Recode Decode: Alibaba exec Joe Tsai (Live at Code 2018)

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