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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Stephen J. Dubner uncovers the hidden side of everything. Why is it safer to fly in an airplane than drive a car? How do we decide whom to marry? Why is the media so full of bad news? Also: things you never knew you wanted to know about wolves, bananas, pollution, search engines, and the quirks of human behavior.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

Freakonomics Radio

Why does an 18th-century Christian oratorio lend such comfort to our own turbulent times? Stephen Dubner sets out for Dublin to tell the story of George Frideric Handel’s Messiah. (Part one of “Making Messiah.”)

 

SOURCES:Charles King • , political scientist at Georgetown University.
Katrine Nyland Sørensen • , Danish broadcaster, host of 
Handel's Messiah - The Advent Calendar.Mark Risinger • , teacher at St. Bernard's School.
 • Michael and Aileen Casey, Dublin conservationists.
Proinnsías Ó Duinn • , conductor and music director of Our Lady's Choral Society.
Stuart Kinsella • , tenor soloist and consort singer.

 

RESOURCES:Every Valley: The Desperate Lives and Troubled Times That Made Handel's Messiah, • by Charles King (2024).
 • "
Two Men Wrote ‘Messiah.’ You Know One of Them. • " by Charles King 
(New York Times, • 2024).
 • "
On Fishamble Street, family lives among four centuries of relatives’ keepsakes • ," by Zuzia Whelan 
(Dublin Inquirer, • 2018).
Hallelujah: The Story of a Musical Genius & the City That Brought His Masterpiece, • by Jonathan Bardon (2016).
George Frideric Handel: A Life with Friends • , by Ellen Harris (2014).
Handel: The Man & His Music, • by Jonathan Keates (2010).
 • "
Handel's Messiah • ," performed by The London Symphony Orchestra (2007).
Handel's Messiah The Advent Calendar • , podcast series
.
 
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“The Greatest Piece of Participatory Art Ever Created”

Macy’s wants to recapture its glorious past. The author of the Wimpy Kid books wants to rebuild his dilapidated hometown. We just want to listen in. (Part two of a two-part series, first published in 2024)

 

SOURCES:Mark Cohen • , former professor and director of retail studies at Columbia Business School.
Will Coss • , vice president and executive producer of Macy’s Studios.
Jeff Kinney • , author, cartoonist, and owner of An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café.
Tony Spring • , chairman and C.E.O. of Macy’s Inc.

 

RESOURCES: • "
How Macy’s CEO Tony Spring Is Turning the Retailer Around • ," by Suzanne Kapner 
(The Wall Street Journal, • 2025).
 • “
NBC Ready to Pay Triple to Gobble Up Thanksgiving Parade Broadcast Rights • ,” by Joe Flint (
The Wall Street Journal, • 2024).
 • “
How Macy’s Set Out to Conquer the Department Store Business — and Lost • ,” by Daphne Howland (
Retail Dive, • 2022).
An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café • .

 

EXTRAS: • “
Can the Macy’s Parade Save Macy’s? • ” series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).

 
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Dying Is Easy. Retail Is Hard. (Update)

The iconic department store calls the parade its “gift to the nation.” With 30 million TV viewers, it’s also a big moneymaker — at least we think it is: when it comes to parade economics, Macy’s is famously tight-lipped. In this 2024 episode, we try to loosen them up. (Part one of a two-part series.)

 

SOURCES: • John Cheney, carpenter at Macy’s Studios.
Will Coss • , vice president and executive producer of Macy’s Studios.
Jeff Kinney • , author, cartoonist, and owner of An Unlikely Story Bookstore and Café.
Kevin Lynch • , vice president of global helium at Messer.
 • Jen Neal, executive vice president of live events and specials for NBCUniversal Entertainment.
Tony Spring • , chairman and C.E.O. of Macy’s Inc.
Jessica Tisch • , New York City police commissioner, former commissioner of the New York City Department of Sanitation.
Dawn Tolson • , executive director of Citywide Event Coordination and Management and the Street Activity Permit Office for the City of New York.

 

RESOURCES:Macy’s: The Store. The Star. The Story., • by Robert M. Grippo (2009).
History of Macy’s of New York, 1853-1919: Chapters in the Evolution of the Department Store • , by Ralph M. Hower (1943).
Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Helium • ," by 
The Economics of Everyday Things • (2024).

 
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Is Macy’s Thanksgiving Parade Its Most Valuable Asset? (Update)

A Trump executive order is giving retail investors more access to private markets. Is that a golden opportunity — or fool’s gold?

 

SOURCES:Elisabeth de Fontenay, • professor of law at Duke University.
Steven Kaplan • , professor of entrepreneurship and finance at the University of Chicago.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Democratizing Access to Alternative Assets for 401(k) Investors • ," 
(The White House, • 2025).
 • "
The (Heterogeneous) Economic Effects of Private Equity Buyouts • ," by Steven J. Davis, John Haltiwanger, Kyle Handley, Ben Lipsius, Josh Lerner, and Javier Miranda (Management Science, 2025).
 • "
Risk-Adjusted Returns of Private Equity Funds: A New Approach • ," by Arthur G. Korteweg and Stefan Nagel (
The Review of Financial Studies • , 2025).
 • "
The Effects of Management Buyouts on Operating Performance and Value • ," by Steven Kaplan 
(Journal of Financial Economics, • 1989).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Biden Policy That Trump Hasn't Touched • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • "
Should Companies Be Owned by Their Workers? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).
 • "
Do You Know Who Owns Your Vet? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).
 • "
Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 
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654. Is the Public Ready for Private Equity?

Thoroughbred auction prices keep setting records. But tracks are closing, gambling revenues are falling, and the sport is increasingly reliant on subsidies. Is that the kind of long shot anybody wants? (Part three of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”)

 

SOURCES:Anne Archer Hinkle • , owner and director of Hinkle Farms.
Cormac Breathnach • , senior director of sales operations at Keeneland.
Emily Plant • , thoroughbred researcher and statistician, associate professor of marketing at the University of Montana.
Mark Taylor • , president of Taylor Made Farm.
Marshall Gramm • , horse player, professor of economics at Rhodes College in Memphis, Tennessee.
Richard Migliore • , head racing analyst for Fox Sports and New York Racing Association, retired jockey.
Sean Feld • , bloodstock agent.
 • Scott Heider, managing principal of Chartwell Capital, thoroughbred investor.
Thomas Lambert • , economist at the University of Louisville.

 

RESOURCES:Death of a Racehorse: An American Story, • by Katie Bo Lillis (2025).
 • "
State of the States 2025: The AGA Analysis of the Commercial Casino Industry • ," 
(American Gaming • 
Association, • 2025).
 • "
An Empirical Analysis of Reputation Effects and Network Centrality in a Multi-Agency Context • ," by Emily Plant 
(University of Kentucky, • 2010).
Calculated Bets: Computers, Gambling, and Mathematical Modeling to Win (Outlooks), • by Steven Skiena (2001).
Bill Oppenheim and Emily Plant's Thoroughbred Market Reports • .
Horseracing Integrity and Safety Authority • .

 
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653. Does Horse Racing Have a Future?

The world has changed a good bit since Freakonomics was first published. In this live anniversary episode, Stephen Dubner tells Geoff Bennett of PBS NewsHour everything he has learned since then. Happy birthday, Freakonomics.

 

SOURCES:Geoff Bennett • , co-anchor and co-managing editor of PBS News Hour.

 

RESOURCES:Freakonomics Twentieth Anniversary Edition: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything, • by Stephen Dubner and Steve Levitt (2025).

 
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What Happens When You Turn 20

How does Kentucky keep itself atop the thoroughbred industry? Is a champion stallion really worth $200,000 per date? And how many hands can one jockey have? (Part two of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”)

 

SOURCES:Emily Plant • , thoroughbred researcher and statistician.
Jill Stowe • , professor of economics at the University of Kentucky.
Mark Taylor • , president of Taylor Made Farm.
Oscar Gonzales • , vice chair of the California Horse Racing Board.
Richard Migliore • , head racing analyst for Fox Sports and New York Racing Association, retired jockey.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Horse racing industry braces for crackdown on illegal immigration • ," by Ximena Bustillo 
(NPR, • 2025).
 • "
Conceptualizing the Kentucky Horse Industry as an Economic Cluster • ," by Lori Garkovich 
(Bluegrass Equine Digest, 2009).
 
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652. Inside the Horse-Industrial Complex

For most of human history, horsepower made the world go. Then came the machines. So why are there still seven million horses in America? (Part one of a series, “The Horse Is Us.”)

 

SOURCES:Ann N. Greene • , historian of 19th century America, retired professor at the University of Pennsylvania.
Constance Hunter • , chief economist at the Economist Intelligence Unit.
 • Elizabeth Bortuzzo, professional horse rider.
Mark Paul • , professor of economics at Rutgers University.
Peter Frankopan • , professor of global history at Oxford History.

 

RESOURCES: • "
2023 Economic Impact Study of the U.S. Horse Industry • ," (
American Horse Council Foundation • , 2024).
Riding to Arms, • by Charles Caramello (2022).
The Horse in the City, • by Clay McShane and Joel Tarr (2011).
Horses at Work, • by Ann Norton Greene (2008).

 
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651. The Ultimate Dance Partner

Spotify, Oracle, and Comcast have each recently announced they’re going with co-C.E.O.s. In this 2023 episode, we dig into the research and hear firsthand stories of triumph and disaster. Also: lessons from computer programmers, Simon and Garfunkel, and bears versus alligators. 

 

SOURCES:Jim Balsillie • , retired chairman and co-C.E.O. of Research In Motion.
Mike Cannon-Brookes • , co-founder and C.E.O. of Atlassian.
Scott Farquhar • , co-founder and former co-C.E.O. of Atlassian.
Marc Feigen • , C.E.O. advisor.
Jeffrey Sonnenfeld • , professor of management studies and senior associate dean at the Yale School of Management and founding president of the Chief Executive Leadership Institute.
Laurie Williams • , professor of computer science at North Carolina State University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Scott Farquhar to resign as joint CEO of Atlassian • ," by Jonathan Barrett 
(The Guardian, • 2024).
 • "
Is It Time to Consider Co-C.E.O.s? • " by Marc A. Feigen, Michael Jenkins, and Anton Warendh (
Harvard Business Review, • 2022).
 • "
The Costs and Benefits of Pair Programming • ," by Alistair Cockburn and Laurie Williams (2000).
 • "
Strengthening the Case for Pair Programming • ," by Laurie Williams, Robert R. Kessler, Ward Cunningham, and Ron Jeffries (
IEEE Software, • 2000).

 

EXTRAS: • "
The Secret Life of a C.E.O. • ," series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

 
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Are Two C.E.O.s Better Than One? (Update)

The U.S. has a physician shortage, created in part by a century-old reform that shut down bad medical schools. But why haven’t we filled the gap? Why are some physicians so unhappy? And which is worse: a bad doctor or no doctor at all?

 

SOURCES:Karen Clay • , professor of economics and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University.
Rochelle Walensky • , physician-scientist and former director of the CDC.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Medical School Closures, Market Adjustment, and Mortality in the Flexner Report Era • ," by Karen Clay, Grant Miller, Margarita Portnykh, and Ethan Schmick 
(National Bureau of Economic Research, • 2025).
 • "
Application Overload — A Call to Reduce the Burden of Applying to Medical School • ," by Rochelle Walensky and Loren Walensky 
(New England Journal of Medicine, • 2025).
 • "
Challenges to the Future of a Robust Physician Workforce in the United States • ," by Rochelle Walensky and Nicole McCann 
(New England Journal of Medicine, • 2025).
 • "
The first step to addressing the physician shortage • ," by Rochelle Walensky and Nicole McCann 
(STAT, • 2025).
 • "
Physician Workforce: Projections, 2022-2037 • ," 
(National Center for Health Workforce Analysis, • 2024).
 • “
Projected Estimates of African American Medical Graduates of Closed Historically Black Medical Schools • ,” by Kendall Campbell, Irma Corral, Jhojana Infante Linares, and Dmitry Tumin (
JAMA Network, • 2020).
 • "
Medical Education in the United States and Canada • ," by Abraham Flexner 
(The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, • 1910).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Is the Air Traffic Control System Broken? • " series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • "
Are You Ready for the Elder Swell? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2025).
 • "
Are Private Equity Firms Plundering the U.S. Economy? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2023).

 
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650. The Doctor Won’t See You Now

The former secretary of state isn’t a flamethrower, but he certainly has strong opinions. In this wide-ranging conversation with Stephen Dubner, he gives them all: on Israel, Gaza, China, Iran, Russia, Biden, Trump — and the rest of the world.

 

SOURCES:Antony Blinken • , former Secretary of State.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Evaluating the impact of two decades of USAID interventions and projecting the effects of defunding on mortality up to 2030: a retrospective impact evaluation and forecasting analysis • ," by Daniella Cavalcanti, Lucas de Oliveira Ferreira de Sales, Andrea Ferreira da Silva, Elisa Basterra, Daiana Pena, Caterina Monti, Gonzalo Barreix, Natanael Silva, Paula Vaz, Francisco Saute, Gonzalo Fanjul, Quique Bassat, Denise Naniche, James Macinko, and Davide Rasella 
(The Lancet, • 2025).
 • "
What Bombs Can’t Do in Iran • ," by Karim Sadjadpour 
(New York Times, • 2025).
 • "
A New Palestinian Offer for Peace With Israel • ," by Elliot Kaufman 
(Wall Street Journal, • 2025).
 • "
America’s Strategy of Renewal • ," by Antony Blinken 
(Foreign Affairs, • 2024).

 
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642. How to Wage Peace, According to Tony Blinken

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