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Lyssna när som helst, var som helst

Jason Pack & Evergreen Podcasts

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Gone are the days of coherent international coordination. Rather than working together to solve pressing crises, many of the world’s most powerful states are actively making those crises worse. The result? We’re living through a novel historical era: The Global Enduring Disorder. 

The Disorder podcast, in partnership with RUSI, teases out the key principles that connect seemingly disparate challenges: from Climate Change to Tax Havens, to Unregulated Cyberspace, to the Wars in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. Jason Pack, Associate Fellow at RUSI, and returning cohosts, discuss with world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, the fundamental principles lurking behind today’s global issues. 

At the conclusion of each episode, they will proposing inventive, win-win solutions to the globe’s most pressing challenges aka, ‘Ordering the Disorder’. 

Website: https://disordershow.com/

Disorder

In this festive edition of Disorder, our hosts Jason Pack, Jane Kinninmont and Mark Lobel reflect on a Disorderly 2025, and preview what could be an even more Disorderly 2026. They gather around the Yuletide fire and shoot the breeze, then discuss personal Christmas traditions, the biggest moments of Disorder throughout the year, while also pointing to some moments of hope that emerged. 

As they Ordered the Disorder, they highlight the need for leadership and Jason returns to his desire for a collective grass roots ordering movement pushing for towards a better future, and why human connection will help us find Order in the new year. The show closes with some beautiful cantorial music giving us some hope for the New Year, while also reflecting our sorrow over what has happened in Sydney.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link (and get access to our January 8th event): https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th (Mega Orderer membership needed for attendance) https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html 

Yet to attend the event you need to join the Mega-Orderer’s Club or the Pay For substack and RSVP through a special form available on either platform: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-with-jane-arthur 

To attend Jane’s UN event, visit https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/unga-at-80-from-1946-to-our-future-tickets-1975305412663?aff=oddtdtcreator 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Listen to Ep 155. Can Canada become the world’s mega orderers? With Marci Surkes https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/YzQ2ZDhjNzQtYzg4NS0xMWYwLWJhMDItMzNiNDI3MTVmMDBh 

Watch Jason on From Global War on Terror to the Global War on the Jews https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pY9KSoQDHc 

The show features our looking ahead to the New Year with the Hebrew song, ‘Ba Shana HaBa’ah’ song by Yoav Oved. You can check out more of his operatic cantorial singing here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OolsTq5ZNNw
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Ep 159. Wishing Our Listeners A Mega Ordering Christmas!

Are we witnessing rising Islamic militancy in Bangladesh? Or could it become a model for other developing countries?

A nationwide celebration is underway. It’s Victory Day for Bangladesh’s 176 million people. Fifty-four years ago today -- December 16th, 1971 -- the former state of East Pakistan became the modern, independent nation of Bangladesh.

 

But few people are pleased with the trajectory Bangladesh is currently on. What’s been happening this past 15 months has shaken this country to its core. On August 5th, 2024 protests over government job quotas escalated into a wider anti-government movement, with a resulting violent crackdown leading to the ousting of the long-time ruler, Sheikh Hasina. She now faces the death penalty if she returns. Her whole political party, the Awami League, has been banned too.

 

Now the Muslim-majority state faces perhaps the most significant fork-in-the-road moment since its independence. The February 2026 election. Can the caretaker leader and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Muhammad Yunus pull it off? Will it be free and fair? It is possible that stability and democracy will be restored. It is also possible that an Islamist takeover and the cancellation of Democracy will ensue.

To find out how the election could not only reshape contemporary Bangladesh’s political foundations but also South Asian stability, security cooperation and geopolitical rivalries, Disorder co-host Mark Lobel is joined by three experts on the ground in the country. 1- Debapriya Bhattacharya-- Economist, public policy analyst and Distinguished Fellow at the Centre for Policy Dialogue in Dhaka, Aasha Mehreen Amin -- joint editor at The Daily Star, and Iftekharuz Zaman -- Executive Director of Transparency International Bangladesh.

Although we don’t hear about it much in the Western press, investors and policymakers the world over certainly have their eyes peeled on South Asia’s second largest economy and what it decides to do next. We hope you the Orderers enjoy this exclusive journalistic content. 

If you like more deepdives like this and appreciate the effort we are putting in please:

PLEASE join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

[Join the pay for substack for the 8 Jan event]

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Aasha's 'No Strings Attached' column: https://www.thedailystar.net/author/aasha-mehreen-amin 

National Survey of Bangladesh: https://www.iri.org/resources/national-survey-of-bangladesh-september-october-2025/ 

Citizen's Platform for SDGs, Bangladesh: https://bdplatform4sdgs.net/ 

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Join us at our live event in RUSI on January 8th https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-what-disorder-will-2026-bring.html (You need to join RUSI or the Mega Orderers Club or Paid for Substack to attend)
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ep 158. Rising Islamic militancy in Bangladesh?

Will the US and Iran always be at odds? What is the history of their feud? Weren’t the countries allies under the Shah? And today, what’s the chance that negotiations will resume after the 12 Day War earlier this year? And why has the Iran file always been one of the most toxic and divisive issues in Washington foreign policy circles?

To find out the answers to these questions and more, Jane - who has analysed and tracked the Iran file for two decades - quizzes an expert, author and friend, Dalia Dassa Kaye, whose new book ‘Enduring Hostility’ explores the history of U.S. policy towards Iran based on interviews with the most important DC insiders from rcent U.S. administrations.

Not many people realise it, but virtually every U.S. administration since Carter has tried diplomacy with Iran. They’ve also always tried various forms of pressure - especially sanctions - and at times threats of military attack. Why, then, do the U.S. and Iran keep circling around the negotiating table despite seeing each other as archenemies?

What happened to the JCPOA and will there be another nuclear deal? Or are we more likely to see another round of war between Iran and Israel?

Jane and Dalia explain it all here just before they both head to Qatar for a bunch of serious discussions about mediation efforts.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

Dalia Dassa Kaye - Enduring Hostility - https://www.sup.org/books/politics/enduring-hostility 

Dalia’s op-ed in the Economist - https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2025/11/28/dont-count-on-a-reset-in-us-iran-relations-writes-dalia-dassa-kaye 

And now to close out, an oldie but a goodie - Jane’s analysis for Chatham House when the JCPOA was signed, looking at the deal’s vulnerabilities and arguing a parallel diplomatic track was needed to address the regional tensions between Iran and its neighbours - https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/default/files/field/field_document/20150703IranGCCKinninmont.pdf 
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Ep 157. Dalia Dassa Kaye: Will Iran and the US always be enemies?

With the long-awaited UK budget finally revealed (in a leaked form a few hours early), will this finally restore a semblance of financial Order to the UK? And with Trump’s haphazard tariffs ongoing and constantly mutating, what does it all mean for the global economic order?

To find out, Jason is joined by Philip Coggan, award winning journalist and author of The Economic Consequences of Mr Trump: What the Trade War Means For the World. This ep is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network. Philip and Jason explore how major historical lessons in economics (concerning specialization, efficiency, growth, the advantages of trade deficits, etc.) can all be unpacked from the ongoing economic consequences of Trump's tariffs. 

They draw upon the historical parallels of Trump's actions to try to understand the true motivations behind Trump’s tarriffs. Is it all about misunderstanding the meaning of trade deficits, or all about manufacturing, or is it all about centralisation of power and political theatre. Listen to find out… Plus: the duo spoke right after the UK budget announcement and they tried to unpack the domestic implications of the recent UK budget and whether any of Reeve’s economic policies can actually Order the Disorder.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on our partnership with the New Books Network visit: https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

Get Philip’s book The Economic Consequences of Mr Trump - https://profilebooks.com/work/the-economic-consequences-of-mr-trump/ 

Cockup instead of Conspiracy: How Rachel Reeves’s budget was leaked 40 minutes early: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/nov/26/how-rachel-reeves-budget-was-leaked-40-minutes-early 

Budget 2025: Key points at a glance-- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj4w44w42j5o 
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Ep 156. Philip Coggan--The Economic Consequences of Mr Trump; And will the UK restore budgetary order?

What aboot Canada? Is Carney still popular? Has he pulled a Starmer of coming in with big fanfare and then flopping? Fortunately not! And with Mark Carney recently narrowly passing a budget, can Canada now play the role of the world’s mega orderers? And with the Canada-U.S. relationship on the rocks and trade talks stalled, what does that mean for Canada’s position in the world?
To find out, Jason is joined by our returning champion, Marci Surkes. She is Chief Strategy Officer and Managing Director of Compass Rose and was formerly executive director of policy and cabinet affairs in Justin Trudeau’s Prime Minister’s Office from 2019-2022. Jason and Marci discuss Prime Minister Mark Carney’s leadership style, the recent surge in Canadian defense spending, and the ongoing trade war with the United States.

Plus: the challenges Canada faces in diversifying its economy, and the implications of its historical reliance on the U.S.. And as they Order the Disorder, they focus on Canada's future role in global politics and the importance of unity within the country.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on Marci and her work visit https://www.compassrosegroup.org/en/marci-surkes 

Listen to our previous episode with Marci: https://open.spotify.com/episode/50T7tW7IXc0wmgHBgH8HUK 

For more on Canada listen to Front Burner https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/front-burner/id1439621628 

Watch The Ontario anti-tariff ad which led Trump to end trade talks with Canada https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWQRuRIxMBI 

Read about Trump’s new tariffs on Canada https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2ljgrm78zo 

Read Canada narrowly approves Carney's first federal budget https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8531xvy26o

Watch The Panel: What Trump means for Canada https://substack.com/@paulwells/p-151283084 

Read 'Expect to see lots of borrowing of technique, borrowing of language,’ from U.S. progressives from Marci https://www.compassrosegroup.org/en/updates/2024/8/26/expect-to-see-lots-of-borrowing-of-technique-borrowing-of-language-from-us-progressives 
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Ep 155. Can Canada become the world’s mega orderers? With Marci Surkes

In this bonus episode, Jane and Jason are joined by former Israeli Ambassador to South Africa, Ilan Baruch, to present a unique perspective on a possible route to peace between Israel and Palestine. Amb. Baruch is a part of the ‘Policy Working Group’, which advocates for ‘leveling the playing field’ between Israelis and Palestinians. 

We discuss the need for ‘equality’ among parties in negotiations, the role of the UK and international community in peace efforts, and what recognition of Palestinian statehood actually means for peace. Plus: changes in Israeli and Diasporic Jewish public opinion regarding a two-state solution, and as they Order the Disorder, Amb. Baruch puts forward a vision for a peaceful future in the Middle East and the role of international powers in achieving it. Jason pushes back on this vision of an Israel-Palestinian condominium as overly optimistic, but hopefully it makes for a great listen.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

NGO MONITOR—SHRINKING SPACE: http://policyworkinggroup.org.il/ 

Listen to World Report https://open.spotify.com/show/5qaYz2SRxlPUszXZQWNl1U?utm_source=chatgpt.com 

For more on Ilan Baruch’s work: https://www.pascalboniface.com/2024/09/11/interview-two-israeli-diplomats-denounce-netanyahus-gaza-policy/ 
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Ep 154. Is it in Israel’s interest to recognize Palestinian Statehood? A conversation with former Israeli Ambassador Ilan Baruch

The US president has said he plans to sue the BBC, even after getting an apology for a misleading Panorama edit of his 6 January speech. But how could he do that national broadcaster of America’s greatest ally? And will the BBC cave?

To find out, Jason is joined again by returning cohost, Mark Lobel. They discuss the BBC’s next moves and whether Trump’s lawsuit actually has any merit. Plus: they dissect a tumultuous week for Keir Starmer, Rachel Reeve’s budgetary reversals, Wes Streeting’s ‘leadership challenge’ and what this all means for actuality of centrist leadership. And as they look to Order the Disorder, they discuss the issue of wealth inequality as today’s greatest global challenge, and why radical transparency and generosity might be what’s needed to fix it.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on Mark Lobel visit https://www.mark-lobel.com/ 

Read Yuval Noah Harari: Only generosity can secure peace between Israelis and Palestinians https://www.ft.com/content/04078017-18b1-4c63-8521-198c69684255 

Read Zach Polanski The right can mock my teeth all it wants – it shows the Greens have struck a nerve https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/nov/10/green-party-zack-polanski-struck-nerve-politics 

Read Upper East Side Moms Are Melting Down Over Mamdani - New York Magazine https://www.thecut.com/article/moms-of-the-upper-east-side-facebook-meltdown-mamdani.html 
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ep 153. Is wealth inequality the greatest global danger? U-turns on a U-Turn: Reeve’s Budget, and why is Trump suing the BBC?

For a special crossover episode with the Democracy Works podcast, Jenna Spinelle talks with Jason. They discuss the state of democracy around the world and why making America's government more like a European country might not be the solution to our current polarization that some democracy reformers hope it will be. We also contrast the current state of play in the US and UK and speculate as to why Keir Starmer has been such a disappointment and how the UK is not able to provide a model of centre-left governance to the US in the way that Jason might have hoped.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on Democracy works visit: https://democracyworks.simplecast.com/ 

To listen to Jason on yet another podcast, try his appearance on Practical Stoicism talking about the completely different topic of backgammon and the importance of being disciplined and self aware: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/practical-stoicism/id1603004118?i=1000734643776
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Ep 152. How do we still get people to believe in Democracy?

Central Park West Apartments for all! Freeze the Rent! Free Palestine! Jason goes on a screed that is sure to bemuse, offend, and enlighten. He showcases the myriad ways in which Mamdani’s leftwing populism is not so dissimilar to Trump’s disordering offerings.

In the wake of Zohran Mamdani’s victory in the New York Mayoral Election, Democrats face a choice. How do they talk about the issues he won on – cost of living, housing, transport – but from a centrist perspective? Or do they even try and double down on the socialism? Because… if Mamdani’s populist hard left politics win out, could they be handing the next presidency to JD Vance?

This week, Jason and Jane discuss the implications of the recent elections in the US, not just in New York City, but across the country. They debate the rise of Zohran Mamdani and how it raises questions profound questions about the soul of America, about nativism, identity politics, and the need for the Democratic Party to learn from centrist candidates to regain voter trust. And as they Order the Disorder, Jane and Jason discuss the growing need for experts in politics, and how populism – whether on the left or right of – isn’t the answer.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

The Fall of New York City in 8 Charts: This is why Mamdani won-- https://www.frontpagemag.com/the-fall-of-new-york-city-in-8-charts

Listen back to Ep3. The Rise of the Neo-Populists https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/NGIxZDgwNGUtNGQ4Ni0xMWVlLWFlMTUtMWYxMWNiYzVkN2Jk 

Timecodes

Chapters

00:00 - 01:44: Intro 

01:44 - 20:28: The Rise of Zohran Mamdani and the Dilemma for Democrats

20:28 - 37:56: What does this mean for wider US politics?

37:56 - end: Ordering the Disorder
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Ep151. Jason loses his city: the disordering pitfalls of Zohran Mamdani’s victory in NYC

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

In institutional design, the US justice system is more independent than its European counterparts. Even though the US President selects his Attorney General, a corrupt President can be dealt with not only via impeachment, but in Principal through independent special counsels pursing justice while avoiding potential conflicts of interest. And yet… from Hillary’s emails to Trump’s possible collusion with Russia and promotion of an insurrection, the Special Prosecutor system hasn't worked as it should. And now despite all those checks and balances, we have a weaponized justice, with a more political DOJ under Pam Bondi being used to pursue revenge against Trump’s enemies. 

How did we get to here? Why can’t the American system – designed with the most checks and balances -- work to hold power to account?

 

To find out, Jason is joined this week by Elie Honig, senior legal analyst for CNN and author of When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President, from Nixon to Trump. This episode is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network. They discuss the legal details of Watergate, Hillary Clinton’s emailgate, the Mueller investigation, and Jan 6. As they order the disorder, Elie and Jason consider whether and how the system can be reformed, and the importance of courage and integrity within the justice system.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: ⁠https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/⁠

For more on our New Books Network partnership visit ⁠https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder⁠ 

Buy When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President, from Nixon to Trump by Elie Honig ⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-You-Come-King-President/dp/0063447363⁠ 

Read Why The Supreme Court Might Strike Down Trumps Tariffs ⁠https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-the-supreme-court-might-strike-down-trumps-tariffs.html⁠

Read The John Bolton Indictment Is Different ⁠https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/the-john-bolton-indictment-is-different/ar-AA1OESRh?apiversion=v2&domshim=1&noservercache=1&noservertelemetry=1&batchservertelemetry=1&renderwebcomponents=1&wcseo=1⁠

Watch Elie Honig on the Lincoln Project ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSEytVs2Er4⁠ 

Read a review of Elie’s book at ⁠https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/elie-honig/when-you-come-at-the-king/⁠ 

Another take on Elie’s book ⁠https://historynerdsunited.com/2025/09/when-you-come-at-the-king-by-elie-honig-book-review/⁠ 
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Ep 150. Why can’t the US justice system hold the powerful to account?

Tuesday night’s vice-presidential debate between Republican JD Vance and Democrat Tim Walz was a breath of fresh air in some ways. The discussion was civil, with Vance in particular attempting to present himself as reasonable. But hiding underneath the crisp suit, eloquent banter, and agreeable disagreements, is a Disorderer, who could become President in 2028, if not sooner. 
 
In this special episode focusing on the VP debate, and the threat Vance presents to democracy, Alex Hall Hall is joined by Greg Olear, host of the Prevail podcast and author of ‘Rough Beast: Who Donald Trump Really Is, What He’ll Do if Re-Elected, and Why Democracy Must Prevail.’ 
 
The pair analyze the implications of the debate for the upcoming election, the role of media in shaping public perception, and the potential threats posed by Vance's political agenda. Plus to Order the Disorder, Alex and Greg delve into the need for the Democrats to communicate effectively. 
 
For more on the ongoing US Presidential race, subscribe to our Substack: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 
 
Producer: George McDonagh 
Exec Producer: Neil Fearn 
 
Show Notes Links 
 
Vance and Walz stick to policy in polite VP debate - but who won? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c5y0863ry88o 
 
CBS cut mics and fact-checked JD Vance in a more civil VP debate, drawing the ire of Trump and his allies: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/02/media/vance-walz-debate-cbs-moderators-fact-check/index.html 
 
Listen to Greg’s podcast Prevail at https://pod.link/1553506699 
 
Read his Substack Prevail at https://gregolear.substack.com/ 
 
Get his book Rough Beast: Who Donald Trump Really Is, What He’ll Do if Re-Elected, and Why Democracy Must Prevail https://www.amazon.com/Rough-Beast-Re-Elected-Democracy-Prevail-ebook/dp/B0D4MS1D25 
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Ep72. JD Vance vs Tim Walz: A gentlemanly Disorderer in a crisp suit vs a folksy Midwestern Orderer

Lyssna när som helst, var som helst

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