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Nate Hagens

The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens explores money, energy, economy, and the environment with world experts and leaders to understand how everything fits together, and where we go from here.

The Great Simplification with Nate Hagens

For centuries, modern science has relied on the scientific method to better understand the world around us. While helpful in many contexts, the scientific method is also objective, controlled, and reductionist – often breaking down complex systems into smaller parts for analysis and isolating subjects to test hypotheses. In contrast, indigenous wisdom is deeply contextual, rooted in lived experience, and emphasizes a reciprocal, integrated relationship with the rest of the natural world, viewing all parts of the system as interconnected. What becomes possible when we combine the strengths of each of these knowledge systems as we navigate humanity's biggest challenges? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Rosa Vásquez Espinoza, a Peruvian chemical biologist with Andean-Amazonian indigenous roots, to discuss how she is actively merging modern science and indigenous knowledge through innovative research in the Amazon Rainforest. Rosa explains how the integration of these two ways of knowing unveil more effective paths forward for conservation and ecological wisdom that simultaneously offer economic opportunity for the people who live there. She also shares her biggest successes to date bringing this vision to life, including documenting and protecting Earth's oldest known bee, the stingless bee. 
 
Were the indigenous people of ancient cultures the original scientists? How can modern science learn from indigenous knowledge – and vice versa? And, rather than siloing ourselves into one 'right' way of seeing the world, what types of insights become possible when we learn to embrace the validity and importance of multiple ways of learning and knowing? 
 
(Conversation recorded on October 22nd, 2025)

 
 
 
About Rosa Vásquez Espinoza:
 
Dr. Rosa Vásquez Espinoza is a Peruvian chemical biologist, National Geographic Explorer, and award-winning artist whose work bridges indigenous knowledge and modern science to protect the Amazon Rainforest and its communities. With Andean-Amazonian indigenous roots, she is the founder of Amazon Research Internacional, where she has pioneered groundbreaking research on extreme Amazonian ecosystems and biodiversity, while advocating for policies that recognize the intrinsic value of nature. 
 
Rosa was the first microbial explorer of the Amazonian Boiling River, led the first chemical analysis of stingless bees and their medicinal honey in Peru, and contributed to scientific advancements that supported Peru's Law 32235, granting legal protection to stingless bees for the first time. Her work as an International Ambassador for the Ashaninka people further highlights her commitment to conservation and indigenous advocacy. She also co-authored the first scientific paper with Ashaninka leaders, blending traditional wisdom with modern science to safeguard the rainforest.
 
Rosa's passion for exploration and conservation is reflected in her new book, The Spirit of the Rainforest: How Indigenous Wisdom and Scientific Curiosity Reconnects Us to the Natural World, which is available now. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Two Ways of Knowing: How Merging Science & Indigenous Wisdom Fuels New Discoveries with Rosa Vásquez Espinoza

In this episode, Nate weaves personal reflections into an exploration of the human predicament, unpacking a series of chronological insights that have reshaped his worldview. What began years ago as an investigation into oil has morphed into a deep lifelong journey into the complex web of energy, psychology, evolution, and systems that drive today's society. By sharing stories and realizations from his own life, whether it's the debunking of Wall Street energy illusions or unpacking how sexual selection is often as important a behavioral driver as natural selection, Nate invites listeners to step back and see the human story through a much wider lens.
 
This episode combines Nate's own evolution of understanding with the overarching narrative of The Great Simplification, speaking to what it means to be human in a dichotomous era of abundance and depletion, of numbness and awakening. It is perhaps more important than ever to be able to see our civilization through this wider perspective: not just as a disparate collection of individuals, but as a living – and learning – superorganism standing at the crossroads of deep time.
 
How might our understanding of progress change if we saw energy, not money, as the true currency of life? What would it mean to live with full awareness of our interconnectedness with the world and systems around us? And could this moment in history mark the shedding of some of the evolutionary impulses that ensured our survival, in favor of a new kind of planetary wisdom?
 
(Recorded November 10, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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11 Discoveries That Changed My Worldview | Frankly 113

Global heating continues, despite the increased use of renewable energy sources and international policies attempting otherwise. Even as emissions reduction efforts continue, our world faces more extreme weather, sea level rise, and human health impacts, all of which are projected to accelerate in the coming decades. This raises an important but controversial question: at what point might more drastic interventions, like geoengineering, become necessary in order to cool the planet?
 
In this episode, Nate interviews Professor Ted Parson about solar geoengineering (specifically stratospheric aerosol injection) as a potential response to severe climate risks. They explore why humanity may need to consider deliberately cooling Earth by spraying reflective particles in the upper atmosphere, how the technology would work, as well as the risks and enormous governance challenges involved. Ted emphasizes the importance of having these difficult conversations now, so that we're prepared for the wide range of climate possibilities in the future.
 
How does stratospheric aerosol injection actually work? What is the likelihood that a major nation (or rogue billionaire) might employ this approach in the next thirty years? What ethical, moral, and biophysical concerns should we consider as we weigh the costs and benefits of further altering Earth's planetary balance? 
 
 
 
About Ted Parson:
 
Edward A. (Ted) Parson is Dan and Rae Emmett Professor of Environmental Law and Faculty Director of the Emmett Institute on Climate Change and the Environment at the University of California, Los Angeles. Parson studies international environmental law and policy, the societal impacts and governance of disruptive technologies including geoengineering and artificial intelligence, and the political economy of regulation. 
 
His most recent books are The Science and Politics of Global Climate Change (with Andrew Dessler), and A Subtle Balance: Evidence, Expertise, and Democracy in Public Policy and Governance, 1970-2010. His 2003 book, Protecting the Ozone Layer: Science and Strategy, won the Sprout Award of the International Studies Association and is widely recognized as the authoritative account of the development of international cooperation to protect the ozone layer.
 
In addition to his academic positions, Parson has worked and consulted for the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, the Office of Technology Assessment of the U.S. Congress, the Privy Council Office of the Government of Canada, and the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis (IIASA). 
 
 
 
Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
---
 
 
 
Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
 
Join our Substack newsletter
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Will We Artificially Cool the Planet? The Science and Politics of Geoengineering with Ted Parson

Mainstream conversations about artificial intelligence tend to center around the technology's economic and large-scale impacts. Yet it's at the individual level where we're seeing AI's most potent effects, and they may not be what you think. Even in the limited time that AI chatbots have been publicly available (like Claude, ChatGPT, Perplexity, etc.), studies show that our increasing reliance on them wears down our ability to think and communicate effectively, and even erodes our capacity to nurture healthy attachments to others. In essence, AI is atrophying the skills that sit at the core of what it means to be human. Can we as a society pause to consider the risks this technology poses to our well-being, or will we keep barreling forward with its development until it's too late?
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Nora Bateson and Zak Stein to explore the multifaceted ways that AI is designed to exploit our deepest social vulnerabilities, and the risks this poses to human relationships, cognition, and society. They emphasize the need for careful consideration of how technology shapes our lives and what it means for the future of human connection. Ultimately, they advocate for a deeper engagement with the embodied aspects of living alongside other people and nature as a way to counteract our increasingly digital world.
 
What can we learn from past mass adaptation of technologies such as the invention of the world wide web or GPS when it comes to AI's increasing presence in our lives? How does artificial intelligence expose and intensify the ways our culture is already eroding our mental health and capacity for human connection? And lastly, how might we imagine futures where technology magnifies the best sides of humanity – like creativity, cooperation, and care – rather than accelerating our most destructive instincts? 
 
(Conversation recorded on October 14th, 2025)

 
 
 
About Nora Bateson:
 
Nora Bateson is an award-winning filmmaker, writer and educator, as well as President of the International Bateson Institute, based in Sweden. Her work asks the question "How can we improve our perception of the complexity we live within, so we may improve our interaction with the world?"
 
An international lecturer, researcher and writer, Nora wrote, directed and produced the award-winning documentary, An Ecology of Mind, a portrait of her father, Gregory Bateson. Her work brings the fields of biology, cognition, art, anthropology, psychology, and information technology together into a study of the patterns in ecology of living systems. Her book, Small Arcs of Larger Circles, released by Triarchy Press, UK, 2016 is a revolutionary personal approach to the study of systems and complexity.
 
 
 
About Zak Stein:
 
Dr. Zak Stein is a philosopher of education, as well as a Co-founder of the Center for World Philosophy and Religion. He is also the Co-founder of Civilization Research Institute, the Consilience Project, and Lectica, Inc. He is the author of dozens of published papers and two books, including Education in a Time Between Worlds. Zak received his EdD from Harvard University. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
 
Join our Substack newsletter
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Hacking Human Attachment: The Loneliness Crisis, Cognitive Atrophy and other Personal Dangers of AI | RR 20

In this week's Frankly, Nate outlines four bifurcations that are likely to underpin the human experience in the near future. While the broad biophysical realities of energy and ecology underpin our civilization's movement over time, in the moment, people will experience these trends mostly economically and psychologically. Whether related to the widening of an already existing economic gap or the expansion of dependence on cognitive crutches like AI, the demographics that comprise society are starting to splinter – to bifurcate. These divergences, and the ways we cope with them, contribute to increasing incoherence as a species.
 
What are the areas we might witness societal bifurcation? Why should we strive to meet others in the context of their lived experiences, even when they diverge radically from our own? How might progress itself start to be redefined?
 
(Recorded October 28th, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 

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Join our Substack newsletter
 
 
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

The Quadruple Bifurcation | Frankly 112

Many of us wrestle with the unsettling truth that everyone – including ourselves and those we love – will one day die. Though this awareness is uncomfortable, research suggests that the human capacity to contemplate death is a byproduct of consciousness itself. In fact, our efforts to cope with mortality are at the core of culture, religion, the desire for wealth, and even many of today's societal crises. How might a deeper understanding of our implicit reactions to mortality help us turn towards responses that are more supportive of our species and planet? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Sheldon Solomon, a psychologist and co-developer of Terror Management Theory, which posits that while all living beings strive to survive, humans are unique in knowing that death is unavoidable. Solomon explores some of our instinctual coping mechanisms, including clinging to existing cultural worldviews and activities that bolster our self-esteem, even when they may have negative consequences for those around us. He also explains how these defensive mechanisms manifest in modern society, influencing politics, consumerism, and religious beliefs. 
 
Why does our fear of death drive materialism and the endless hunger for "more"? How do reminders of death impact our attitudes toward people with different political or religious beliefs? And lastly, could practices rooted in mindfulness, gratitude, and awe help us to more skillfully relate to death anxiety by strengthening our relationships, giving to our community, and reveling in the expansive magnificence of the universe in which we get to inhabit? 
 
(Conversation recorded on September 25th, 2025)
 
 
 
About Sheldon Solomon:
 
Sheldon Solomon is Professor of Psychology at Skidmore College. His research on the behavioral effects of the unique human awareness of death have been supported by the National Science Foundation and the Ernest Becker Foundation, and were featured in the award winning documentary film Flight from Death: The Quest for Immortality. 
 
Sheldon is the co-author of the book In the Wake of 9/11: The Psychology of Terror and The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life. Additionally, he is an American Psychological Society Fellow, as well as a recipient of an American Psychological Association Presidential Citation (2007) and a Lifetime Career Award by the International Society for Self and Identity (2009).
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
 
Join our Substack newsletter
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Terror Management Theory: How Existential Dread Has Shaped the World with Sheldon Solomon

In this week's Frankly, Nate considers the ways in which our social species overvalues false-confidence rather than the more honest and inquisitive response of "I don't know." He invites us to consider the science behind this cultural bias towards certainty: from our biological response from the stress of "not knowing" to the reinforcing effects of motivated reasoning that ensnares even the smartest among us (especially the smartest among us).
 
Overconfidence and the desire for quick answers have been the root cause of many of humanity's disasters, from the space shuttle Challenger explosion to the Deep Water Horizon oil spill to the subprime housing bubble. And now, the exponential growth and integration of Artificial Intelligence is hyper-fueling this risk, as AI mirrors the human aversion to uncertainty through "hallucinations". As some AI companies are now considering penalizing over-confident answers in favor of "I don't know", perhaps humans could learn to do the same for ourselves.
 
How often do you say. "I don't know"? In what ways do we lose opportunities for conversation and exploration by not admitting our own uncertainties? Can listening to our own gut for "truth" and embracing intentional Red Team dissent shift "I don't know" from weakness to wisdom?
 
(Recorded October 17th, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 

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The Three Most Important Words We're Taught Not to Say

Monopolistic business practices have been illegal in the United States for more than a century. Yet, monopoly power continues to accelerate in our modern commercial landscape. Large, powerful corporations edge out smaller businesses, often citing scale, "efficiency", and lower costs as their reasons for success. But looking more closely reveals a reality that is far different. Small businesses are more cost-effective and deliver better results to the people they serve than giant corporations. Furthermore, they form the backbone of engaged and connected communities. So what is actually preventing small businesses (and communities) from flourishing, and what can individuals do today to build economic power in their communities? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by economic writer and strategist, Stacy Mitchell, to explore how concentrated economic power shapes the health of towns and cities – from economic resilience to social connectedness. They unpack why big businesses actually deliver poorer, pricier results and more vulnerable supply chains, yet are able squeeze smaller businesses out of the market. Stacy also sheds light on the United States' long history of breaking up monopolies through antitrust laws, and the policy developments in recent decades that have prevented their enforcement. 
 
How do small businesses play an integral role in fostering resilient social capital? Why have we seen an increase in economic consolidation and inequality in the last several decades, and how can we reverse it? Finally, what practical steps can each of us take in our own communities to advance more localized economic systems that better serve people and the planet?
 
(Conversation recorded on September 18th, 2025) 
 
 
 
 
About Stacy Mitchell:
 
Stacy Mitchell is a writer, strategist, and policy advocate. She is Co-Executive Director of the Institute for Local Self-Reliance, an organization that for five decades has challenged the wisdom of neoliberalism and championed local, community-oriented models. She also serves on the board of the Maine Center for Economic Policy. 
 
Additionally, Stacy is the author of Big-Box Swindle: The True Cost of Mega-Retailers and the Fight for America's Independent Businesses. In 2016, she co-authored Amazon's Stranglehold, an influential report that took a critical eye to the e-commerce giant. Congress cited her research on Amazon's monopolization strategy in its investigation of Big Tech's dominance in 2021 and her work informed the Federal Trade Commission's antitrust lawsuit against the company in 2023. She has also worked extensively at the local level, helping communities craft policies that support local entrepreneurship and vibrant commercial districts. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
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Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
 
 
 
Join our Substack newsletter
 
 
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Challenging Monopoly Power: Why Local Business is Better for People, the Planet, and Your Wallet with Stacy Mitchell

In this week's Frankly, Nate reflects on the multiple metaphors brought to mind via a single photograph, which depicts a sloth climbing a barbed wire fence in Costa Rica. Beyond evoking compassion for a species that's on the receiving end of human intervention into its ecosystem, the image raises larger ideas about the response of animals, including humans, to artificial cues and novel environments. Just as the sloth mistakes a fence post for the safety of a tree, modern humans mistake consumption, speed, and certainty for meaning.
 
Moving beyond just the image, Nate unpacks the word "sloth" itself as one of the original seven deadly sins, offering a reimagining of what today's seven moral failings might be in the context of a global economic superorganism. Apathy, righteousness, and anthropocentrism might be today's major vices, which each have consequences for the environment and our relationship to it.
 
Can we stand our ground locally against the global superorganism? How can we begin to reclaim agency and compassion – both for ourselves and the ecosystems we are inextricably a part of? Do our instincts no longer serve us in a world so rapidly and radically changed?
 
(Recorded October 13th, 2025)
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More

 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 

 
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What Sloths Teach Us About the Superorganism

Twenty-five years ago, a landmark paper warned that the world's coral reefs could vanish by 2050. Now, halfway to that projected date (and amid ever more frequent coral bleaching events), that grim prediction feels increasingly close to reality. What is the current state of Earth's coral reefs, and what would happen to our planetary home without them? 
 
In this episode, Nate is joined by Ove Hoegh-Guldberg, the marine biologist who made this landmark prediction, for an update on the health of coral reefs and the primary ecological stressors driving their decline. Drawing on decades of research, he explains the mechanisms of coral bleaching, the critical biodiversity hotspots that reefs create, and the implications for human populations that depend on these ecosystems. Ove also touches on the emotional impact of witnessing the loss of reefs for the scientists who have dedicated their lives to studying them.
 
How are human actions increasingly putting pressure on the very ecosystems that support more than one billion people? What would happen to the broader health of the oceans if reefs were to disappear entirely? And most of all, what changes can both individuals and institutions make today to support the health of these vital ecosystems – and in-turn, the well-being of the entire Earth?
 
(Conversation recorded on August 6th, 2025) 

 
 
 
About Ove Hoegh-Guldberg:
 
Ove Hoegh-Guldberg is Professor of Marine Studies at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, as well as the Deputy Director of the Centre for Excellence in Coral Reef Studies. Over the past 10 years, he was also the Founding Director of the Global Change Institute. In addition to this work, Ove conceived and led the scientific XL-Catlin Seaview Survey which has surveyed over 1000 km of coral reefs across 25 countries and captured and analysed over 1 million survey images of coral reefs. 
 
Ove's research focuses on the impacts of global change on marine ecosystems, and he is one of the most cited authors on climate change. He has also been a dedicated communicator of the threat posed by ocean warming and acidification to marine ecosystems, being one of the first scientists to identify the serious threat posed by climate change for coral reefs in a landmark paper published in 1999, which predicted the loss of coral reefs by 2050. 
 
 
 
 Show Notes and More
 
Watch this video episode on YouTube
 
 
 
Want to learn the broad overview of The Great Simplification in 30 minutes? Watch our Animated Movie.
 
 
 
---
 
 
 
Support The Institute for the Study of Energy and Our Future
 
Join our Substack newsletter
 
 Join our Hylo channel and connect with other listeners

Will Coral Reefs Be Gone by 2050? How Bleaching, Acidification, and Ocean Heating are Killing Coral Reefs with Ove Hoegh-Guldberg

In this week's Frankly, Nate considers 7 different continuums of perspectives people use when taking part in a "systems" discourse, such as The Great Simplification podcast is attempting. In such complex and often controversial discussions, each of us has a point of view that stems from our own personal experiences, knowledge and identity - yet how we channel that point of view into the larger discourse matters. How does understanding our own perspectives potentially help us side-step mental roadblocks and become more open to other possibilities and actions? What are the hidden ruts that we can fall into when discussing the future with others that we're not consciously thinking of and can we learn to avoid them? Can shifting our perspective along the spectrum of potential responses open dialogue and facilitate more inclusive and cooperative conversations as we collectively try to meet the future halfway?
 
 
 
To Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/XsNmLwX2X_4
 
For Show Notes and More: https://www.thegreatsimplification.com/frankly-original/42-running-the-systems-discourse-gauntlet

Running the 'Systems Discourse' Gauntlet | Frankly #42

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