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Freakonomics Radio + Stitcher

Freakonomics co-author Steve Levitt tracks down other high achievers for surprising, revealing conversations about their lives and obsessions. Join Levitt as he goes through the most interesting midlife crisis you’ve ever heard — and learn how a renegade sheriff is transforming Chicago's jail, how a biologist is finding the secrets of evolution in the Arctic tundra, and how a trivia champion memorized 160,000 flashcards.

To get every show in the Freakonomics Radio Network without ads and a monthly bonus episode of Freakonomics Radio, start a free trial for SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus.

People I (Mostly) Admire

Irving Finkel is an expert on cuneiform — the oldest known writing system. He tells Steve the amazing story of how an ancient clay tablet unlocked the truth about Noah’s ark (and got Finkel in trouble with some Christians).

 

SOURCES:Irving Finkel • , curator in the department of the Middle East at the British Museum.

 

RESOURCES: • "
How to write cuneiform • ," by Irving Finkel 
(The British Museum, • 2021).
 • "
PBS Nova: Secrets of Noah's Ark • ," (2015).
The Ark Before Noah: Decoding the Story of the Flood, • by Irving Finkel (2014).
 • "
Epic Hero • ," by David Damrosch 
(Smithsonian Magazine, • 2007).
 • "
How Egyptian hieroglyphs were decoded, a timeline to decipherment • ," 
(The British Museum).
 

EXTRAS: • "
Jane Goodall, Who Chronicled the Social Lives of Chimps, Dies at 91 • ," by Keith Schneider 
(New York Times, • 2025).
 • "
Jane Goodall Changed the Way We See Animals. She’s Not Done • ." by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).
 • "
D:Ream - Things Can Only Get Better • ," (1993).

 
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169. Decoding the World’s First Writing

Moon Duchin is a math professor at the University of Chicago whose theoretical work has practical applications for voting and democracy. Why is striving for fair elections so difficult?

 

SOURCES:Moon Duchin • , professor of mathematics at Cornell University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Gerrymandering: The Origin Story • ," by Neely Tucker (
Timeless: Stories from the Library of Congress, • 2024).
 • "
Redistricting for Proportionality • ," by Gabe Schoenbach and Moon Duchin (
The Forum, • 2023).
 • "
The Atlas Of Redistricting • ," by Aaron Bycoffe, Ella Koeze, David Wasserman, and Julia Wolfe (
FiveThirtyEight, • 2018).
 • "
In a Comically Drawn Pennsylvania District, the Voters Are Not Amused • ," by Trip Gabriel (
The New York Times, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS: • "
State of Texas to begin calling witnesses in federal hearing over Trump-backed congressional map • ," by Blaise Gainey 
(KUT News, • 2025).
 • "
Utah's Redistricting Battle Explained • ," 
(PBS Utah, • 2025).
 • "
Is This the Future of High School? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2022).

 
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Is There a Fair Way to Divide Us? (Update)

Frances Arnold pioneered the process of directed evolution — mimicking natural selection to create new enzymes that have changed everything from agriculture to laundry.

 

SOURCES:Frances Arnold • , professor of chemistry at the California Institute of Technology. 

 

RESOURCES: • "
Innovation by Evolution: Bringing New Chemistry to Life • ," by Frances Arnold (Nobel Lecture, 2018).
 • "
Bacteria taught to bond carbon and silicon for the first time • ," by Aviva Rutkin (
New Scientist • , 2016).
 • "
Directed evolution of cytochrome c for carbon–silicon bond formation: Bringing silicon to life • ," by S. B. Jennifer Kan, Russell D. Lewis, Kai Chen, and Frances H. Arnold (
Science • , 2016).
 • "
The Director of Evolution • ," by Jennifer Ouellette (
Slate • , 2013).
 • "
Engineered ketol-acid reductoisomerase and alcohol dehydrogenase enable anaerobic 2-methylpropan-1-ol production at theoretical yield in Escherichia coli • ," by Sabine Bastian, Xiang Liu, Joseph T. Meyerowitz, Christopher D. Snow, Mike M. Y. Chen, and Frances H. Arnold (
Metabolic Engineering • , 2011).
Gevo • .
Provivi • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
How to Help Kids Succeed • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2025).
The Levitt Lab • .

 
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168. Chemistry, Evolved

Steven Pinker’s new book argues that all our relationships depend on shared assumptions and “recursive mentalizing” — our constant efforts to understand what other people are thinking. He and Steve talk about the psychology of eye contact, the particular value of Super Bowl ads, and what it’s like to get cancelled.

 

SOURCES:Steven Pinker • , professor of psychology at Harvard University.

 

RESOURCES:When Everyone Knows That Everyone Knows, • by Steven Pinker (2025).
 • "
Why I Left Harvard • ," by Carole Hooven 
(The Free Press, • 2024).
Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters • , by Steven Pinker (2021).
 • "
Economics of Toilet Paper X Thread • ," by Justin Wolfers (2020).
 • "
How a Famous Harvard Professor Became a Target Over His Tweets • ," by Michael Powell 
(New York Times, • 2020).
 • "
Police Killings of Blacks: Here Is What the Data Say • ," by Sendhil Mullainathan (2015).
SuperFreakonomics: Global Cooling, Patriotic Prostitutes, and Why Suicide Bombers Should Buy Life Insurance, • by Steven Levitt and Stephen Dubner (2011).
Rational Ritual: Culture, Coordination, and Common Knowledge, • by Michael Suk-Young Chwe (2003).
 • "
Open Letter to the LSA • ."

 

EXTRAS: • "
Steven Pinker: 'I Manage My Controversy Portfolio Carefully • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2020).

 
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167. The Secret of Humanity? It’s Common Knowledge.

The Power of Habit author Charles Duhigg wrote his new book in an attempt to learn how to communicate better. Steve shares how the book helped him understand his own conversational weaknesses.

 

SOURCES:Charles Duhigg • , journalist and author.

 

RESOURCES:Supercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, • by Charles Duhigg (2024).
 • "
2023 Word of the Year Is 'Enshittification • ,'" by the American Dialect Association (2024).
 • "
When Someone You Love Is Upset, Ask This One Question • ," by Jancee Dunn (
The New York Times, • 2023).
Smarter Faster Better: The Secrets of Being Productive in Life and Business, • by Charles Duhigg (2016).
 • "
The 36 Questions That Lead to Love • ," by Daniel Jones (
The New York Times, • 2015).
The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business, • by Charles Duhigg (2012).
 • "
The Experimental Generation of Interpersonal Closeness: A Procedure and Some Preliminary Findings • ," by Arthur Aron, Edward Melinat, Elaine N. Aron, Robert Darrin Vallone, and Renee J. Bator (
Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, • 1997).

 

EXTRAS: • "
How Can You Get Closer to the People You Care About? • " by 
No Stupid Questions • (2023).
 • "
How Do You Connect With Someone You Just Met? • " by 
No Stupid Questions • (2023).
 • "
Can I Ask You a Ridiculously Personal Question? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2021).
 • "
Amanda & Lily Levitt Share What It’s Like to be Steve’s Daughters • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Marina Nitze: 'If You Googled ‘Business Efficiency Consultant,’ I Was the Only Result • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
How to Be More Productive • ," by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2016).
Frozen, • film (2013).

 
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How to Have Great Conversations (Update)

Seth Berkley used to run the world's largest vaccine funding organization. He and Steve talk about the incredible value of vaccines, the economics of immunizing the developing world, and the current attacks on public health.

 

SOURCES:Seth Berkley • , epidemiologist at Brown University School of Public Health.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Trump Administration Ends Program Critical to Search for an H.I.V. Vaccine • ," by Apoorva Mandavilli 
(New York Times, • 2025).
Fair Doses: An Insider's Story of the Pandemic and the Global Fight for Vaccine Equity, • by Seth Berkley (2025).
 • "
How a partnership saved millions of children’s lives with vaccines • ," 
(Gates Foundation).Gavi, the Vaccine Alliance • .

 

EXTRAS: • "
Sendhil Mullainathan Thinks Messing Around Is the Best Use of Your Time • ," by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2021).
 • "
Moncef Slaoui: 'It’s Unfortunate That It Takes a Crisis for This to Happen • ,'" by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2020).

 
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166. The World’s Most Effective Public Health Intervention Is Under Attack

Stefanie Stantcheva’s approach seemed like career suicide. In fact, it won her the John Bates Clark Medal. She talks to fellow winner Steve Levitt about why she uses methods that most of the profession dismisses — and what she’s found that can’t be learned any other way.

 

SOURCES:Stefanie Stantcheva • , professor of political economy at Harvard University.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Understanding Economic Behavior Using Open-ended Survey Data • ," by Ingar Haaland, Christopher Roth, Stefanie Stantcheva, and Johannes Wohlfart 
(Working Paper, • 2025).
 • "
Fighting Climate Change: International Attitudes toward Climate Policies • ," by Antoine Dechezleprêtre, Adrien Fabre, Tobias Kruse, Bluebery Planterose, Ana Sanchez Chico, and Stefanie Stantcheva 
(American Economic Review, • 2025).
 • "
Zero-Sum Thinking and the Roots of U.S. Political Divides • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2024).
 • "
Why Do We Dislike Inflation? • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2024).
 • "
How to Run Surveys: A Guide to Creating Your Own Identifying Variation and Revealing the Invisible • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(Annual Review of Economics, • 2022).
 • "
Eliciting People's First-Order Concerns: Text Analysis of Open-Ended Survey Questions • ," by Beatrice Ferrario and Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2022).
 • "
Understanding Tax Policy: How Do People Reason? • ," by Stefanie Stantcheva 
(The Quarterly Journal of Economics, • 2021).
 • "
Immigration and Redistribution • ," by Alberto Alesina, Armando Miano, and Stefanie Stantcheva 
(NBER Working Paper, • 2018).

 

EXTRAS:VerbAI by Generation Lab • .

 
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165. The Economist Who (Gasp!) Asks People What They Think

From recording some of the first rap hits to revitalizing Johnny Cash's career, the legendary producer has had an extraordinary creative life. In this episode he talks about his new book and his art-making process — and helps Steve get in touch with his own artistic side. 

 

SOURCES:Rick Rubin • , music producer and record executive.

 

RESOURCES:The Creative Act: A Way of Being, • by Rick Rubin (2023).
 • “
How Google’s AlphaGo Beat a Go World Champion • ,” by Christopher Moyer (
The Atlantic, • 2016).
 • “
DMC: The Real Story of Aerosmith + Run-D.M.C.’s ‘Walk This Way’ • ,” by 
Loudwire • (2016).
 • “
Hurt • ,” by Johnny Cash, music video (2003).
 • “
Walk This Way • ,” by Run-DMC, ft. Aerosmoth (1986).
 • “
It’s Yours • ,” by T La Rock (1984).
 • “
Walk This Way • ,” by Aerosmith (1975).
The Way of Code • .

 

EXTRAS: • “
How To Be Creative • ,” series by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2018).

 
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Rick Rubin on How to Make Something Great (Update)

More than two decades ago, Adam Riess’s Nobel Prize-winning work fundamentally changed our understanding of the universe. His new work is reshaping cosmology for a second time.

 

RESOURCES:Adam Riess • , astrophysicist at Johns Hopkins University.

 

SOURCES: • "
The Nobel Prize Winner Who Thinks We Have the Universe All Wrong • ," by Ross Andersen 
(The Atlantic, • 2025).
 • "
The answer to life, the universe and everything might be 73. Or 67 • ," by Hannah Devlin 
(The Guardian, • 2018).
 • "
Adam G. Riess Nobel Prize Lecture • ," 
(The Nobel Foundation, • 2011).
 • "
Breakthroughs 1998 • ," by Floyd Bloom 
(Science, • 1998).
 • "
Observational Evidence from Supernovae for an Accelerating Universe and a Cosmological Constant • ," by Adam Riess, Alexei Filippenko, Peter Challis, Alejandro Clocchiatti, Alan Diercks, Peter Garnavich, Ron Gilliland, Craig Hogan, Saurabh Jha, Robert Kirshner, Bruno Leibundgut, Mark Phillips, David Reiss, Brian Schmidt, Robert Schommer, Chris Smith, Jason Spyromilio, Christopher Stubbs, Nicholas Suntzeff, and John Tonry 
(The Astronomical Journal, • 1998).
 • "
1912: Henrietta Leavitt Discovers the Distance Key • ," 
(Carnegie Institution for Science) • .

 
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164. Unravelling the Universe, Again

Uri Simonsohn is a behavioral science professor who wants to improve standards in his field — so he’s made a sideline of investigating fraudulent academic research. He tells Steve Levitt, who's spent plenty of time rooting out cheaters in other fields, how he does it.

 

SOURCES:Uri Simonsohn • , professor of behavioral science at Esade Business School.

 

RESOURCES: • "
Gino v. President and Fellows of Harvard College • ," 
(Court Listener, • 2025).
 • "
Statement from Dan Ariely • ," (2024).
 • "
Data Falsificada (Part 4): 'Forgetting The Words • ,'" by Uri Simonsohn, Leif Nelson, and Joe Simmons 
(Data Colada, • 2023).
 • "
They Studied Dishonesty. Was Their Work a Lie? • " by Gideon Lewis-Kraus 
(The New Yorker, • 2023).
 • "
Evidence of Fraud in an Influential Field Experiment About Dishonesty • ," by Uri Simonsohn, Leif Nelson, and Joe Simmons 
(Data Colada, • 2023).
 • "
Signing at the beginning makes ethics salient anddecreases dishonest self-reports in comparison tosigning at the end • ," by Lisa Shu, Nina Mazar, Francesca Gino, Dan Ariely, and Max Bazerman 
(PNAS, • 2021).
 • "
Power Posing: Reassessing The Evidence Behind The Most Popular TED Talk • ," by Uri Simonsohn and Joe Simmons 
(Data Colada • , 2015).
 • "
Your Body Language May Shape Who You Are • ," by Amy Cuddy 
(TED, • 2012).
 • "
Daily Horizons: Evidence of Narrow Bracketing in Judgment from 10 Years of MBA-Admission Interviews • ," by Uri Simohnson and Francesa Gino 
(Psychological Science, • 2012).
 • "
Spurious? Name similarity effects (implicit egotism) in marriage, job, and moving decisions • ," by Uri Simohnson 
(Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, • 2011).
 • "
False-Positive Psychology: Undisclosed Flexibility in Data Collection and Analysis Allows Presenting Anything as Significant • ," by Joe Simmons, Leif Nelson, and Uri Simohnson 
(Psychological Science, • 2011).

 

EXTRAS: • "
Will We Solve the Climate Problem? • " by 
People I (Mostly) Admire • (2025).
 • "
Why Is There So Much Fraud in Academia? • " by 
Freakonomics Radio • (2024).
 • "
When I'm Sixty Four • ," by The Beatles (1967).

 
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163. The Data Sleuth Taking on Shoddy Science

Nobel laureate, best-selling author, and groundbreaking psychologist Daniel Kahneman is also a friend and former business partner of Steve’s. In discussing Danny’s new book Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment, the two spar over inconsistencies in criminal sentencing and Danny tells Steve that “Your attitude is unusual” — no surprise there. 

 
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27. Daniel Kahneman on Why Our Judgment is Flawed — and What to Do About It

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